Fabrizio Giudici

Anton, in fact the most interesting point would be to know the real distribution of Gradle. It seems to have momentum, but in the past many things seemed to have momentum, still they are a niche today. But this most valuable information is not there, as per your doubts.

Anton :-) it's not that I like or dislike them. I might like to know that Maven is the predominant build tool for Java, but honestly I don't think that there's any meaning in those numbers. I mean, they can be even right, but nobody can prove it. Basically you made some reasonable comments about the possible over-estimation of Gradle and under-estimation of Ant. But if somebody came here and argued against this point, how one could reply? In the end, what difference do this poll with no normalization does with respect of you or me writing a short post in which we say "I believe that Maven is the most used tool"?

I don't understand why we continue creating polls that can't have any statistic value, in primis because there's no normalisation to remove bias - a thing that it's just not fixed by a large number of votes. We know that, we even write that, and then we still draw conclusion on them. Do we have forgotten "garbage in, garbage out"?

Lieven, you started right, but ended wrong... :-) Overall, you're right: nobody should feel forced to use the release maven plugin if it doesn't fit the release process he wants. In fact, first you define a release process, then you use/adapt the best tool to run it. We agree. I don't have remarks about the release process you describe - I woulnd't use it as is, but in this area there is room for variants, above all it depends on the context (a single developer, a small agile team, a medium sized team or a large team of course would choose different processes).

But:

Releases are not something done on a whim. They are carefully planned and orchestrated actions, preceded by countless rules and followed by more rules.

Sure. This doesn't mean that they shouldn't be automated as much as possible. This doesn't mean that at a certain point one might have performed all the homework and approved a release, and then the decision of making a release could just turn into pressing a button (e.g. launch a job in Hudson which in turn runs Maven). The Maven release plugin might support or not this automated process, but this is another matter. Small projects, such as libraries, that have adequate test coverage can be released as frequently as one wants, for instance.

Releasing software is a process, not a single command on the command line.

What kind of logics does infer that "a process" cannot be automated, partially or totally? Manual processes are error-prone and the last thing that I'd like to see is a release failed for a trivial manual error (I've seen a lot).

Then you wrote some Maven facts that are very incorrect.

Even Maven’s most fierce supporters agree on this. The Maven release plugin just tries to do too much stuff at once: build your software, tag it, build it again, deploy it, build the site (triggering yet another build in the process) and deploy the site. And whilst doing that, running the tests x times. Most of the time, you’re making candidate releases, so building the complete documentation is a complete waste of time.

False. The release maven plugin can be customized in very flexible ways. You can disable running tests, generating the javadoc, or the source jars, and the site, and eventually design profiles to have variants on these choices. Have you ever read about the preparationGoals, goals, completionGoals properties of the plugin? To give concrete examples: I don't need the Maven generated site, so site generation is always disabled for me. I also disabled tests, because before releasing I run tests separately. The core of the release cycle can just be: check that everything is compilable, tag and prepare the next version, and then run a forked Maven that checks out from the tag and performs the build.

The release plugin is just a combination of the versions, scm, deploy and site plugin that seriously violates the single responsibility principle.

Apart from the fact that this comment on internal software quality need not to have to do with usability (there are famous counter-examples: many say that Wordpress and JIRA are poorly designed, still they work well and are very popular), your statement is erroneous... Anyway composing stuff, as you correctly say, does not violate the SRP. The important thing is that the single components have a single responsibility, and in this is true with the mentioned plugins. If your sentence was true, we should only have software apps that do a single, simple thing.

The release plugin is one of the reasons Maven has gotten a bad reputation with some people.

Maven could have a bad reputation with some people because they legitimately don't like the way it works or because people just don't read the f***ing manual, and then blog incorrect things. :-)

I set up a number of industrial products where releases are managed with the release-plugin and in most cases no problems. Yes, we do Releases Candidates too. In a case where the customer is not totally satisfied with the release plugin, he is not really satisfied with the way dependencies are managed (e.g. because you have a dependency graph among subprojects with many levels and there are "ripples" when dependencies are updated. I verified that some people have similar problems with different tools, such as Gradle, so it has more to do with the process, the project structure, the dependency management, and not the release plugin.

Lieven, you started right, but ended wrong... :-) Overall, you're right: nobody should feel forced to use the release maven plugin if it doesn't fit the release process he wants. In fact, first you define a release process, then you use/adapt the best tool to run it. We agree. I don't have remarks about the release process you describe - I woulnd't use it as is, but in this area there is room for variants, above all it depends on the context (a single developer, a small agile team, a medium sized team or a large team of course would choose different processes).

But:

Releases are not something done on a whim. They are carefully planned and orchestrated actions, preceded by countless rules and followed by more rules.

Sure. This doesn't mean that they shouldn't be automated as much as possible. This doesn't mean that at a certain point one might have performed all the homework and approved a release, and then the decision of making a release could just turn into pressing a button (e.g. launch a job in Hudson which in turn runs Maven). The Maven release plugin might support or not this automated process, but this is another matter. Small projects, such as libraries, that have adequate test coverage can be released as frequently as one wants, for instance.

Releasing software is a process, not a single command on the command line.

What kind of logics does infer that "a process" cannot be automated, partially or totally? Manual processes are error-prone and the last thing that I'd like to see is a release failed for a trivial manual error (I've seen a lot).

Then you wrote some Maven facts that are very incorrect.

Even Maven’s most fierce supporters agree on this. The Maven release plugin just tries to do too much stuff at once: build your software, tag it, build it again, deploy it, build the site (triggering yet another build in the process) and deploy the site. And whilst doing that, running the tests x times. Most of the time, you’re making candidate releases, so building the complete documentation is a complete waste of time.

False. The release maven plugin can be customized in very flexible ways. You can disable running tests, generating the javadoc, or the source jars, and the site, and eventually design profiles to have variants on these choices. Have you ever read about the preparationGoals, goals, completionGoals properties of the plugin? To give concrete examples: I don't need the Maven generated site, so site generation is always disabled for me. I also disabled tests, because before releasing I run tests separately. The core of the release cycle can just be: check that everything is compilable, tag and prepare the next version, and then run a forked Maven that checks out from the tag and performs the build.

The release plugin is just a combination of the versions, scm, deploy and site plugin that seriously violates the single responsibility principle.

Apart from the fact that this comment on internal software quality need not to have to do with usability (there are famous counter-examples: many say that Wordpress and JIRA are poorly designed, still they work well and are very popular), your statement is erroneous... Anyway composing stuff, as you correctly say, does not violate the SRP. The important thing is that the single components have a single responsibility, and in this is true with the mentioned plugins. If your sentence was true, we should only have software apps that do a single, simple thing.

The release plugin is one of the reasons Maven has gotten a bad reputation with some people.

Maven could have a bad reputation with some people because they legitimately don't like the way it works or because people just don't read the f***ing manual, and then blog incorrect things. :-)

I set up a number of industrial products where releases are managed with the release-plugin and in most cases no problems. Yes, we do Releases Candidates too. In a case where the customer is not totally satisfied with the release plugin, he is not really satisfied with the way dependencies are managed (e.g. because you have a dependency graph among subprojects with many levels and there are "ripples" when dependencies are updated. I verified that some people have similar problems with different tools, such as Gradle, so it has more to do with the process, the project structure, the dependency management, and not the release plugin.

Lieven, you started right, but ended wrong... :-) Overall, you're right: nobody should feel forced to use the release maven plugin if it doesn't fit the release process he wants. In fact, first you define a release process, then you use/adapt the best tool to run it. We agree. I don't have remarks about the release process you describe - I woulnd't use it as is, but in this area there is room for variants, above all it depends on the context (a single developer, a small agile team, a medium sized team or a large team of course would choose different processes).

But:

Releases are not something done on a whim. They are carefully planned and orchestrated actions, preceded by countless rules and followed by more rules.

Sure. This doesn't mean that they shouldn't be automated as much as possible. This doesn't mean that at a certain point one might have performed all the homework and approved a release, and then the decision of making a release could just turn into pressing a button (e.g. launch a job in Hudson which in turn runs Maven). The Maven release plugin might support or not this automated process, but this is another matter. Small projects, such as libraries, that have adequate test coverage can be released as frequently as one wants, for instance.

Releasing software is a process, not a single command on the command line.

What kind of logics does infer that "a process" cannot be automated, partially or totally? Manual processes are error-prone and the last thing that I'd like to see is a release failed for a trivial manual error (I've seen a lot).

Then you wrote some Maven facts that are very incorrect.

Even Maven’s most fierce supporters agree on this. The Maven release plugin just tries to do too much stuff at once: build your software, tag it, build it again, deploy it, build the site (triggering yet another build in the process) and deploy the site. And whilst doing that, running the tests x times. Most of the time, you’re making candidate releases, so building the complete documentation is a complete waste of time.

False. The release maven plugin can be customized in very flexible ways. You can disable running tests, generating the javadoc, or the source jars, and the site, and eventually design profiles to have variants on these choices. Have you ever read about the preparationGoals, goals, completionGoals properties of the plugin? To give concrete examples: I don't need the Maven generated site, so site generation is always disabled for me. I also disabled tests, because before releasing I run tests separately. The core of the release cycle can just be: check that everything is compilable, tag and prepare the next version, and then run a forked Maven that checks out from the tag and performs the build.

The release plugin is just a combination of the versions, scm, deploy and site plugin that seriously violates the single responsibility principle.

Apart from the fact that this comment on internal software quality need not to have to do with usability (there are famous counter-examples: many say that Wordpress and JIRA are poorly designed, still they work well and are very popular), your statement is erroneous... Anyway composing stuff, as you correctly say, does not violate the SRP. The important thing is that the single components have a single responsibility, and in this is true with the mentioned plugins. If your sentence was true, we should only have software apps that do a single, simple thing.

The release plugin is one of the reasons Maven has gotten a bad reputation with some people.

Maven could have a bad reputation with some people because they legitimately don't like the way it works or because people just don't read the f***ing manual, and then blog incorrect things. :-)

I set up a number of industrial products where releases are managed with the release-plugin and in most cases no problems. Yes, we do Releases Candidates too. In a case where the customer is not totally satisfied with the release plugin, he is not really satisfied with the way dependencies are managed (e.g. because you have a dependency graph among subprojects with many levels and there are "ripples" when dependencies are updated. I verified that some people have similar problems with different tools, such as Gradle, so it has more to do with the process, the project structure, the dependency management, and not the release plugin.

Lieven, you started right, but ended wrong... :-) Overall, you're right: nobody should feel forced to use the release maven plugin if it doesn't fit the release process he wants. In fact, first you define a release process, then you use/adapt the best tool to run it. We agree. I don't have remarks about the release process you describe - I woulnd't use it as is, but in this area there is room for variants, above all it depends on the context (a single developer, a small agile team, a medium sized team or a large team of course would choose different processes).

But:

Releases are not something done on a whim. They are carefully planned and orchestrated actions, preceded by countless rules and followed by more rules.

Sure. This doesn't mean that they shouldn't be automated as much as possible. This doesn't mean that at a certain point one might have performed all the homework and approved a release, and then the decision of making a release could just turn into pressing a button (e.g. launch a job in Hudson which in turn runs Maven). The Maven release plugin might support or not this automated process, but this is another matter. Small projects, such as libraries, that have adequate test coverage can be released as frequently as one wants, for instance.

Releasing software is a process, not a single command on the command line.

What kind of logics does infer that "a process" cannot be automated, partially or totally? Manual processes are error-prone and the last thing that I'd like to see is a release failed for a trivial manual error (I've seen a lot).

Then you wrote some Maven facts that are very incorrect.

Even Maven’s most fierce supporters agree on this. The Maven release plugin just tries to do too much stuff at once: build your software, tag it, build it again, deploy it, build the site (triggering yet another build in the process) and deploy the site. And whilst doing that, running the tests x times. Most of the time, you’re making candidate releases, so building the complete documentation is a complete waste of time.

False. The release maven plugin can be customized in very flexible ways. You can disable running tests, generating the javadoc, or the source jars, and the site, and eventually design profiles to have variants on these choices. Have you ever read about the preparationGoals, goals, completionGoals properties of the plugin? To give concrete examples: I don't need the Maven generated site, so site generation is always disabled for me. I also disabled tests, because before releasing I run tests separately. The core of the release cycle can just be: check that everything is compilable, tag and prepare the next version, and then run a forked Maven that checks out from the tag and performs the build.

The release plugin is just a combination of the versions, scm, deploy and site plugin that seriously violates the single responsibility principle.

Apart from the fact that this comment on internal software quality need not to have to do with usability (there are famous counter-examples: many say that Wordpress and JIRA are poorly designed, still they work well and are very popular), your statement is erroneous... Anyway composing stuff, as you correctly say, does not violate the SRP. The important thing is that the single components have a single responsibility, and in this is true with the mentioned plugins. If your sentence was true, we should only have software apps that do a single, simple thing.

The release plugin is one of the reasons Maven has gotten a bad reputation with some people.

Maven could have a bad reputation with some people because they legitimately don't like the way it works or because people just don't read the f***ing manual, and then blog incorrect things. :-)

I set up a number of industrial products where releases are managed with the release-plugin and in most cases no problems. Yes, we do Releases Candidates too. In a case where the customer is not totally satisfied with the release plugin, he is not really satisfied with the way dependencies are managed (e.g. because you have a dependency graph among subprojects with many levels and there are "ripples" when dependencies are updated. I verified that some people have similar problems with different tools, such as Gradle, so it has more to do with the process, the project structure, the dependency management, and not the release plugin.

Martin, your point (a) is very true. But here nobody is saying that starting from tomorrow you're not going to use Swing any longer, only JavaFX. You can mix the two things, and it makes sense to start using JavaFX for all the things it can already deal, and use Swing as legacy.

For what concerns tooling, I like a lot Matisse. The problem of Matisse is that it's going to lock you in NetBeans. For me it's not big deal, but for some customer it can be. One might like NetBeans, but then be forced to migrate to Eclipse because of corporate decision. At that point, if you've got tons of UI generated by Matisse, you have a problem. Now, JavaFX has got SceneBuilder, which works on FXML files, which are a defined standards. This means that UIs designed in JavaFX are IDE-independent and their layout is a resource file, not a piece of locked code, and they can be easily styled by means of CSS - definitely steps forward, and in this area Java has been behind for years. Not counting that JavaFX has got a working web browser pane based on WebKit, while all the previous attempts in Swing, both pure Java and with native libraries, have been a pain.

SceneBuilder is 1.0, so it's not as proven as Matisse, still it looks it's usable for many things. In any case, there will be further progress steps with JavaFX, while only major bugfixing for Swing in years to come.

Martin, your point (a) is very true. But here nobody is saying that starting from tomorrow you're not going to use Swing any longer, only JavaFX. You can mix the two things, and it makes sense to start using JavaFX for all the things it can already deal, and use Swing as legacy.

For what concerns tooling, I like a lot Matisse. The problem of Matisse is that it's going to lock you in NetBeans. For me it's not big deal, but for some customer it can be. One might like NetBeans, but then be forced to migrate to Eclipse because of corporate decision. At that point, if you've got tons of UI generated by Matisse, you have a problem. Now, JavaFX has got SceneBuilder, which works on FXML files, which are a defined standards. This means that UIs designed in JavaFX are IDE-independent and their layout is a resource file, not a piece of locked code, and they can be easily styled by means of CSS - definitely steps forward, and in this area Java has been behind for years. Not counting that JavaFX has got a working web browser pane based on WebKit, while all the previous attempts in Swing, both pure Java and with native libraries, have been a pain.

SceneBuilder is 1.0, so it's not as proven as Matisse, still it looks it's usable for many things. In any case, there will be further progress steps with JavaFX, while only major bugfixing for Swing in years to come.

Martin, your point (a) is very true. But here nobody is saying that starting from tomorrow you're not going to use Swing any longer, only JavaFX. You can mix the two things, and it makes sense to start using JavaFX for all the things it can already deal, and use Swing as legacy.

For what concerns tooling, I like a lot Matisse. The problem of Matisse is that it's going to lock you in NetBeans. For me it's not big deal, but for some customer it can be. One might like NetBeans, but then be forced to migrate to Eclipse because of corporate decision. At that point, if you've got tons of UI generated by Matisse, you have a problem. Now, JavaFX has got SceneBuilder, which works on FXML files, which are a defined standards. This means that UIs designed in JavaFX are IDE-independent and their layout is a resource file, not a piece of locked code, and they can be easily styled by means of CSS - definitely steps forward, and in this area Java has been behind for years. Not counting that JavaFX has got a working web browser pane based on WebKit, while all the previous attempts in Swing, both pure Java and with native libraries, have been a pain.

SceneBuilder is 1.0, so it's not as proven as Matisse, still it looks it's usable for many things. In any case, there will be further progress steps with JavaFX, while only major bugfixing for Swing in years to come.

Martin, your point (a) is very true. But here nobody is saying that starting from tomorrow you're not going to use Swing any longer, only JavaFX. You can mix the two things, and it makes sense to start using JavaFX for all the things it can already deal, and use Swing as legacy.

For what concerns tooling, I like a lot Matisse. The problem of Matisse is that it's going to lock you in NetBeans. For me it's not big deal, but for some customer it can be. One might like NetBeans, but then be forced to migrate to Eclipse because of corporate decision. At that point, if you've got tons of UI generated by Matisse, you have a problem. Now, JavaFX has got SceneBuilder, which works on FXML files, which are a defined standards. This means that UIs designed in JavaFX are IDE-independent and their layout is a resource file, not a piece of locked code, and they can be easily styled by means of CSS - definitely steps forward, and in this area Java has been behind for years. Not counting that JavaFX has got a working web browser pane based on WebKit, while all the previous attempts in Swing, both pure Java and with native libraries, have been a pain.

SceneBuilder is 1.0, so it's not as proven as Matisse, still it looks it's usable for many things. In any case, there will be further progress steps with JavaFX, while only major bugfixing for Swing in years to come.

Martin, your point (a) is very true. But here nobody is saying that starting from tomorrow you're not going to use Swing any longer, only JavaFX. You can mix the two things, and it makes sense to start using JavaFX for all the things it can already deal, and use Swing as legacy.

For what concerns tooling, I like a lot Matisse. The problem of Matisse is that it's going to lock you in NetBeans. For me it's not big deal, but for some customer it can be. One might like NetBeans, but then be forced to migrate to Eclipse because of corporate decision. At that point, if you've got tons of UI generated by Matisse, you have a problem. Now, JavaFX has got SceneBuilder, which works on FXML files, which are a defined standards. This means that UIs designed in JavaFX are IDE-independent and their layout is a resource file, not a piece of locked code, and they can be easily styled by means of CSS - definitely steps forward, and in this area Java has been behind for years. Not counting that JavaFX has got a working web browser pane based on WebKit, while all the previous attempts in Swing, both pure Java and with native libraries, have been a pain.

SceneBuilder is 1.0, so it's not as proven as Matisse, still it looks it's usable for many things. In any case, there will be further progress steps with JavaFX, while only major bugfixing for Swing in years to come.

Martin, your point (a) is very true. But here nobody is saying that starting from tomorrow you're not going to use Swing any longer, only JavaFX. You can mix the two things, and it makes sense to start using JavaFX for all the things it can already deal, and use Swing as legacy.

For what concerns tooling, I like a lot Matisse. The problem of Matisse is that it's going to lock you in NetBeans. For me it's not big deal, but for some customer it can be. One might like NetBeans, but then be forced to migrate to Eclipse because of corporate decision. At that point, if you've got tons of UI generated by Matisse, you have a problem. Now, JavaFX has got SceneBuilder, which works on FXML files, which are a defined standards. This means that UIs designed in JavaFX are IDE-independent and their layout is a resource file, not a piece of locked code, and they can be easily styled by means of CSS - definitely steps forward, and in this area Java has been behind for years. Not counting that JavaFX has got a working web browser pane based on WebKit, while all the previous attempts in Swing, both pure Java and with native libraries, have been a pain.

SceneBuilder is 1.0, so it's not as proven as Matisse, still it looks it's usable for many things. In any case, there will be further progress steps with JavaFX, while only major bugfixing for Swing in years to come.

@Carl Antaki "What happened to Bluemarine?

A few years ago it was my first attempt to mavenize a project. I did it badly (learning the lesson for other things), and I was stupid enough to try also other things during the process; add Oracle stepping in, saying that java.net and kenai.com were going away, then changing idea, etc… so I also moved three times in the meantime; and having scarce time, I also was to upgrade various libraries. I did very bad, in a few words, and for a long time the project was not compilable outside my computer. It seems that the snapshots are now mostly compilable in my Hudson, so I should close to a decent state. Of course, compilable doesn't mean working :-) but chances are that by August the project is back. I'll have to change a lots of things that in the meantime I decided to do in a different way…

"Also what about Netbeans that uses Swing, is there a project of integrating JavaFX in Netbeans?"

I've started integrating JavaFX in smaller NetBeans projects - if you correctly did presentation separation, it's not hard. For a few time you'll have to use both Swing-derived components from the Platform and your own JavaFX stuff. I don't think there's an official plan, but I know of some people in the community working to provide JavaFX components fitting with the Platform model objects. I have still to catch up with that.

@Carl Antaki "What happened to Bluemarine?

A few years ago it was my first attempt to mavenize a project. I did it badly (learning the lesson for other things), and I was stupid enough to try also other things during the process; add Oracle stepping in, saying that java.net and kenai.com were going away, then changing idea, etc… so I also moved three times in the meantime; and having scarce time, I also was to upgrade various libraries. I did very bad, in a few words, and for a long time the project was not compilable outside my computer. It seems that the snapshots are now mostly compilable in my Hudson, so I should close to a decent state. Of course, compilable doesn't mean working :-) but chances are that by August the project is back. I'll have to change a lots of things that in the meantime I decided to do in a different way…

"Also what about Netbeans that uses Swing, is there a project of integrating JavaFX in Netbeans?"

I've started integrating JavaFX in smaller NetBeans projects - if you correctly did presentation separation, it's not hard. For a few time you'll have to use both Swing-derived components from the Platform and your own JavaFX stuff. I don't think there's an official plan, but I know of some people in the community working to provide JavaFX components fitting with the Platform model objects. I have still to catch up with that.

@Carl Antaki "What happened to Bluemarine?

A few years ago it was my first attempt to mavenize a project. I did it badly (learning the lesson for other things), and I was stupid enough to try also other things during the process; add Oracle stepping in, saying that java.net and kenai.com were going away, then changing idea, etc… so I also moved three times in the meantime; and having scarce time, I also was to upgrade various libraries. I did very bad, in a few words, and for a long time the project was not compilable outside my computer. It seems that the snapshots are now mostly compilable in my Hudson, so I should close to a decent state. Of course, compilable doesn't mean working :-) but chances are that by August the project is back. I'll have to change a lots of things that in the meantime I decided to do in a different way…

"Also what about Netbeans that uses Swing, is there a project of integrating JavaFX in Netbeans?"

I've started integrating JavaFX in smaller NetBeans projects - if you correctly did presentation separation, it's not hard. For a few time you'll have to use both Swing-derived components from the Platform and your own JavaFX stuff. I don't think there's an official plan, but I know of some people in the community working to provide JavaFX components fitting with the Platform model objects. I have still to catch up with that.

@Carl Antaki "What happened to Bluemarine?

A few years ago it was my first attempt to mavenize a project. I did it badly (learning the lesson for other things), and I was stupid enough to try also other things during the process; add Oracle stepping in, saying that java.net and kenai.com were going away, then changing idea, etc… so I also moved three times in the meantime; and having scarce time, I also was to upgrade various libraries. I did very bad, in a few words, and for a long time the project was not compilable outside my computer. It seems that the snapshots are now mostly compilable in my Hudson, so I should close to a decent state. Of course, compilable doesn't mean working :-) but chances are that by August the project is back. I'll have to change a lots of things that in the meantime I decided to do in a different way…

"Also what about Netbeans that uses Swing, is there a project of integrating JavaFX in Netbeans?"

I've started integrating JavaFX in smaller NetBeans projects - if you correctly did presentation separation, it's not hard. For a few time you'll have to use both Swing-derived components from the Platform and your own JavaFX stuff. I don't think there's an official plan, but I know of some people in the community working to provide JavaFX components fitting with the Platform model objects. I have still to catch up with that.

@Carl Antaki "What happened to Bluemarine?

A few years ago it was my first attempt to mavenize a project. I did it badly (learning the lesson for other things), and I was stupid enough to try also other things during the process; add Oracle stepping in, saying that java.net and kenai.com were going away, then changing idea, etc… so I also moved three times in the meantime; and having scarce time, I also was to upgrade various libraries. I did very bad, in a few words, and for a long time the project was not compilable outside my computer. It seems that the snapshots are now mostly compilable in my Hudson, so I should close to a decent state. Of course, compilable doesn't mean working :-) but chances are that by August the project is back. I'll have to change a lots of things that in the meantime I decided to do in a different way…

"Also what about Netbeans that uses Swing, is there a project of integrating JavaFX in Netbeans?"

I've started integrating JavaFX in smaller NetBeans projects - if you correctly did presentation separation, it's not hard. For a few time you'll have to use both Swing-derived components from the Platform and your own JavaFX stuff. I don't think there's an official plan, but I know of some people in the community working to provide JavaFX components fitting with the Platform model objects. I have still to catch up with that.

@Carl Antaki "What happened to Bluemarine?

A few years ago it was my first attempt to mavenize a project. I did it badly (learning the lesson for other things), and I was stupid enough to try also other things during the process; add Oracle stepping in, saying that java.net and kenai.com were going away, then changing idea, etc… so I also moved three times in the meantime; and having scarce time, I also was to upgrade various libraries. I did very bad, in a few words, and for a long time the project was not compilable outside my computer. It seems that the snapshots are now mostly compilable in my Hudson, so I should close to a decent state. Of course, compilable doesn't mean working :-) but chances are that by August the project is back. I'll have to change a lots of things that in the meantime I decided to do in a different way…

"Also what about Netbeans that uses Swing, is there a project of integrating JavaFX in Netbeans?"

I've started integrating JavaFX in smaller NetBeans projects - if you correctly did presentation separation, it's not hard. For a few time you'll have to use both Swing-derived components from the Platform and your own JavaFX stuff. I don't think there's an official plan, but I know of some people in the community working to provide JavaFX components fitting with the Platform model objects. I have still to catch up with that.

I guess why I'm writing about the Church at DZone, but I suppose that since the post is here, it makes sense to comment it :-)

"but maybe they should be"

No, they shouldn't. Church core business is not to sell a product or service.

"The Church hasn’t embraced the modern information age, doesn’t show up in social media"

Partially false. It's true that some kind of innovation inside the Church occurs at a slow pace, but there are priests and bishops who have very active social media pages, and the Pope has recently got a Twitter account. I'm not sure this is meaningful or not whether it makes sense or not, probably it is does for some respects and not for others, in any case there is a presence.

"and doesn’t own its public message."

Totally false, or I didn't understand what you mean.

I guess why I'm writing about the Church at DZone, but I suppose that since the post is here, it makes sense to comment it :-)

"but maybe they should be"

No, they shouldn't. Church core business is not to sell a product or service.

"The Church hasn’t embraced the modern information age, doesn’t show up in social media"

Partially false. It's true that some kind of innovation inside the Church occurs at a slow pace, but there are priests and bishops who have very active social media pages, and the Pope has recently got a Twitter account. I'm not sure this is meaningful or not whether it makes sense or not, probably it is does for some respects and not for others, in any case there is a presence.

"and doesn’t own its public message."

Totally false, or I didn't understand what you mean.

Agreed with Nikolas. It's easy to port JUnit test to TestNG as there's a compatibile assert() method (not trivial: the native assert() for TestNG has got reversed arguments). There's also a plugin for NetBeans and Hudson/Jenkins.

Agreed with Nikolas. It's easy to port JUnit test to TestNG as there's a compatibile assert() method (not trivial: the native assert() for TestNG has got reversed arguments). There's also a plugin for NetBeans and Hudson/Jenkins.

"Actually the point about git is interesting because if you think about it, svn -> git is actually a way of moving a lot of stuff away from the cloud. With svn your repository exists in the cloud and you maintain a local copy. With git, your repository exists on your own machine and you exchange changesets with everyone else over the cloud (you may also have a copy in the cloud but you don't work off it)."

I disagree and the problem is that the word "cloud" is contrived and means everything, so it probably means different things to us. For instance, the experience cited by Lund just the comment above is not cloud - if you just have a dummy client connected to a remote VM, this is client-server. Perhaps the server is immersed in a cloud and this delivers high availability, scalability and lower cost of ownership, but I say that if I'm working with a dummy client I don't enjoy a cloud. My local node should be an equal peer on the cloud: why should it be just a dummy client?

A cloud to me is extreme peer-to-peer, where every piece of stuff stays in the optimized place, to maximize the user experience. Thus to me Git/Mercurial are the best example of cloud, because I enjoy data replication and backup on the remote notes, sharing offered by the remote notes, but at the same time maximum working speed because I have also thing locally - and I still can work in disconnected mode, which is something that will never go away, even though many cloud advocates keep saying the opposite.

There's a fundamental principle of engineering that most same to have forgotten, which says that things must be designed in the simplest possible way and avoid waste of resources, and being forced to always operate remotely contradicts this principle.

Security on the cloud is just a nightmare.

"Actually the point about git is interesting because if you think about it, svn -> git is actually a way of moving a lot of stuff away from the cloud. With svn your repository exists in the cloud and you maintain a local copy. With git, your repository exists on your own machine and you exchange changesets with everyone else over the cloud (you may also have a copy in the cloud but you don't work off it)."

I disagree and the problem is that the word "cloud" is contrived and means everything, so it probably means different things to us. For instance, the experience cited by Lund just the comment above is not cloud - if you just have a dummy client connected to a remote VM, this is client-server. Perhaps the server is immersed in a cloud and this delivers high availability, scalability and lower cost of ownership, but I say that if I'm working with a dummy client I don't enjoy a cloud. My local node should be an equal peer on the cloud: why should it be just a dummy client?

A cloud to me is extreme peer-to-peer, where every piece of stuff stays in the optimized place, to maximize the user experience. Thus to me Git/Mercurial are the best example of cloud, because I enjoy data replication and backup on the remote notes, sharing offered by the remote notes, but at the same time maximum working speed because I have also thing locally - and I still can work in disconnected mode, which is something that will never go away, even though many cloud advocates keep saying the opposite.

There's a fundamental principle of engineering that most same to have forgotten, which says that things must be designed in the simplest possible way and avoid waste of resources, and being forced to always operate remotely contradicts this principle.

Security on the cloud is just a nightmare.

I was undecided on the vote on this post, because on one side it's true (but also easy) to predict that the cloud will expand, but on the other hand there are too many exaggerations, so, sorry Eugene, I voted down.

In addition to remarks done by others, I add that it take a few minutes for me to set up a Linux development machine, either with a sample script that downloads and installs everything (in a physical or virtual machine), or a Vagrant setup (in a virtual machine). Indeed, the bottleneck here is the network speed to download stuff. And if the network is not super-fast, bye bye developing in the cloud.

I'd only add that saying that in the foreseeable future the cloud will expand doesn't mean that the trend will continue forever. The first massive security problem - that is just waiting to happen - could dramatically change things.

I was undecided on the vote on this post, because on one side it's true (but also easy) to predict that the cloud will expand, but on the other hand there are too many exaggerations, so, sorry Eugene, I voted down.

In addition to remarks done by others, I add that it take a few minutes for me to set up a Linux development machine, either with a sample script that downloads and installs everything (in a physical or virtual machine), or a Vagrant setup (in a virtual machine). Indeed, the bottleneck here is the network speed to download stuff. And if the network is not super-fast, bye bye developing in the cloud.

I'd only add that saying that in the foreseeable future the cloud will expand doesn't mean that the trend will continue forever. The first massive security problem - that is just waiting to happen - could dramatically change things.

Definitely +1 for slf4j and logback. Most of the recent FLOSS products standardize on slf4j, I've been using both in production, even for my customers, and it's fine.

Definitely +1 for slf4j and logback. Most of the recent FLOSS products standardize on slf4j, I've been using both in production, even for my customers, and it's fine.

First, thank you because this is a valuable post.

"This is, of course, problematic as CrashPlan is most likely running its backup while I’m actively working in my virtual machine."

This is a very interesting point as this way of operating is common to other popular backup systems, such as Time Machine on the Mac, and basically makes this kind of backup almost useless. Not only for backing up a VM, but anything that doesn't commit atomically changes to a filesystem (which means everything, from Opera to Lightroom). Most people seem to just "trust" the coolness factor of the UI of TimeMachine, or the fact that "my backup does everything automatically", without considering these side effects. Usually you realize you didn't have a solid backup when you have to restore something.

Back to the central point, I hoped for the snapshot to be more effective, but found the same problems you describe. For me, VM aren't such important, I mean I use them for testing something for my customers, but there are no vital data inside. If something crashes without possibility of a recovery, I just have to restart from a plain system, checkout some code and run tests. That's why I'm perfectly fine with a manual, sync approach: I have created "clean" versions of Windows 7 and Ubuntu, applied the patches available at the time of creation, then zipped the .vdi and archived it (before zipping you can apply some tricks to minimize the size of the zip, for Windows e.g. http://garethtuckercrm.com/2012/07/25/shrinking-virtualbox-vdi-files/). When I have to restart from scratch, I just unzip the image, change the file name of the disk image, change the UUID which is registered by Virtual Box and I'm ready.

For a more frequent backup of vital data, I frankly don't see anything more safe and effective that manually run rsync (or something based on it), periodically, after stopping the applications. I backup my data (not only VMs) in this way and I've been fine so far. rsync can do incremental backups, preserving the overwritten files for as many times as you want. I usually do this in the launch and dinner pauses, so it's like I have a sort of automatic reminder (whenever I eat I backup) and I don't have to pause my job. For backups requiring a longer time, you can launch them before going to sleep, adding something that powers off/freezes the machine when it's over.

For the record, I also have a Time Machine backup disk, mostly because I've got a bag of recovered 2.5" disks that I "need" to use in some way. It doesn't cost me to have this disk attached all the day and it's a sort of backup complement. It's mostly useful for special cases, such as you delete a file, then you empty the trash, and then you realize you've done a mistake. It actually worked for me once, but as you can guess it's a fairly rare use case.

Serious backup of serious data today still requires discipline and manual care. Things would be different if we had a transactional file system. Unfortunately Apple seems not to care for Mac OS X; Linux users could try BTRFS; for Windows, I don't now.

First, thank you because this is a valuable post.

"This is, of course, problematic as CrashPlan is most likely running its backup while I’m actively working in my virtual machine."

This is a very interesting point as this way of operating is common to other popular backup systems, such as Time Machine on the Mac, and basically makes this kind of backup almost useless. Not only for backing up a VM, but anything that doesn't commit atomically changes to a filesystem (which means everything, from Opera to Lightroom). Most people seem to just "trust" the coolness factor of the UI of TimeMachine, or the fact that "my backup does everything automatically", without considering these side effects. Usually you realize you didn't have a solid backup when you have to restore something.

Back to the central point, I hoped for the snapshot to be more effective, but found the same problems you describe. For me, VM aren't such important, I mean I use them for testing something for my customers, but there are no vital data inside. If something crashes without possibility of a recovery, I just have to restart from a plain system, checkout some code and run tests. That's why I'm perfectly fine with a manual, sync approach: I have created "clean" versions of Windows 7 and Ubuntu, applied the patches available at the time of creation, then zipped the .vdi and archived it (before zipping you can apply some tricks to minimize the size of the zip, for Windows e.g. http://garethtuckercrm.com/2012/07/25/shrinking-virtualbox-vdi-files/). When I have to restart from scratch, I just unzip the image, change the file name of the disk image, change the UUID which is registered by Virtual Box and I'm ready.

For a more frequent backup of vital data, I frankly don't see anything more safe and effective that manually run rsync (or something based on it), periodically, after stopping the applications. I backup my data (not only VMs) in this way and I've been fine so far. rsync can do incremental backups, preserving the overwritten files for as many times as you want. I usually do this in the launch and dinner pauses, so it's like I have a sort of automatic reminder (whenever I eat I backup) and I don't have to pause my job. For backups requiring a longer time, you can launch them before going to sleep, adding something that powers off/freezes the machine when it's over.

For the record, I also have a Time Machine backup disk, mostly because I've got a bag of recovered 2.5" disks that I "need" to use in some way. It doesn't cost me to have this disk attached all the day and it's a sort of backup complement. It's mostly useful for special cases, such as you delete a file, then you empty the trash, and then you realize you've done a mistake. It actually worked for me once, but as you can guess it's a fairly rare use case.

Serious backup of serious data today still requires discipline and manual care. Things would be different if we had a transactional file system. Unfortunately Apple seems not to care for Mac OS X; Linux users could try BTRFS; for Windows, I don't now.

It depends on what you want to do. For a customer that heavily relies upon SVG rendering (and much more complex files, converted from Autocad drawings) no JS solution has proved to be viable, so far, in terms of performance; also considering that the document not only needs to be rendered once, but also zoomed, panned, and animated promptly. The Java solution (with Batik) works very well and it seems one of the field where JS is still (far) behind.

The Hamcrest hack is amusing, indeed. It taught me a good lesson the first time I wrote a custom Matcher.

The Hamcrest hack is amusing, indeed. It taught me a good lesson the first time I wrote a custom Matcher.

I must say I find this post pretty confusing. First you advocate against using "non standard" tools such as Lombok. Apart from the fact that the term "proprietary" is plain wrong, as Lombok is FLOSS, what is your definition of "standard"? I mean: once upon a time most of the Java ecosystem was made by official tools and APIs made by Sun. This is no more true since quite a few years, considering that there are plenty of things such as Spring, GWT, Guice, the whole huge bag of products made by Apache Software Foundation, etc. So "standard" is not really a valuable criterion to pick software, while popularity, well estabilished communities, maintenance, etc... are the good criteria to use.

On the other hand, there are de-facto standards that help in reducing entropy and integrating things, and the getter/setter convention is just one of those. It's not only used by Spring or JSF, but by a whole bag of other products, such as JPA, Swing, XStream, and again here the list is long. We should give up with this in change of what? The "get" and "set" semantics are quite clear, while e.g. the idea of having a property() method that returns the <i>previous</i> value is quite obscure (and useless, I can't think of a popular, useful use case). Good idea to allow method chaining, in fact many people do that with regular getters/setters, but again I'd advice against making it a standard, since you have to deal with a few of important things, such as the choice of returning "this" or a cloned object. So, I'd use chainable setters when needed, when it's properly documented, and using a specific naming convetion (withProperty() is a good one).

I think it would be a good thing to have a language extension that allowed calling getters/setters with a shorter syntax as you propose (e.g. property = 5), but in this case the way getters/setters are named is not important since it's hidden by the compiler...

So I really can't understand your points...

I must say I find this post pretty confusing. First you advocate against using "non standard" tools such as Lombok. Apart from the fact that the term "proprietary" is plain wrong, as Lombok is FLOSS, what is your definition of "standard"? I mean: once upon a time most of the Java ecosystem was made by official tools and APIs made by Sun. This is no more true since quite a few years, considering that there are plenty of things such as Spring, GWT, Guice, the whole huge bag of products made by Apache Software Foundation, etc. So "standard" is not really a valuable criterion to pick software, while popularity, well estabilished communities, maintenance, etc... are the good criteria to use.

On the other hand, there are de-facto standards that help in reducing entropy and integrating things, and the getter/setter convention is just one of those. It's not only used by Spring or JSF, but by a whole bag of other products, such as JPA, Swing, XStream, and again here the list is long. We should give up with this in change of what? The "get" and "set" semantics are quite clear, while e.g. the idea of having a property() method that returns the <i>previous</i> value is quite obscure (and useless, I can't think of a popular, useful use case). Good idea to allow method chaining, in fact many people do that with regular getters/setters, but again I'd advice against making it a standard, since you have to deal with a few of important things, such as the choice of returning "this" or a cloned object. So, I'd use chainable setters when needed, when it's properly documented, and using a specific naming convetion (withProperty() is a good one).

I think it would be a good thing to have a language extension that allowed calling getters/setters with a shorter syntax as you propose (e.g. property = 5), but in this case the way getters/setters are named is not important since it's hidden by the compiler...

So I really can't understand your points...

"I know there are ways around this problem (such as local repositories), but it is still something that has to be taken into account."

This is not a way around, is the solution. You need a local repo (such as Nexus or artifactory) and the backup of it. This doesn't sound so different than the fact that you need a Subversion, Mercurial or GIT corporate repository, and the backup of it. Or in ten years you won't have the sources too.

"be able to use a different markup language than XML"

Maven 3 supports different markup languages. AFAIK it's the IDE support that's missing, perhaps because in the end not so many people need it.

"It should be easier to add JARs to the classpath that are not in the Maven repository but in a local lib-directory inside the project."

I frankly strongly advice about going the regular way, that is uploading the stuff to a local repo, but what's wrong with system dependencies? You just point to a local file outside the repo (e.g. in a local dir) and give it GAV coordinates.

"It should be easier to completely customize the packaging of a JAR, e.g., by running a custom script."

The assembly plugin gives a lot of options for building JARs, but in the end yes, you can use a custom script. You can embed ant Ant script and bind it to a phase with the antrun plugin, or write something in Groovy with the gmaven plugin.

Ok, others have already said something meaningful, I'd like to re-context the topic a bit. Maven is based on a *fixed* build workflow that can be customized with a certain degree of flexibility. The point is whether it is enough or not, but clearly it's in Maven nature to try to align you on its own way of working (this is in clear contrast e.g. with Ant or other script-based build tools when you can do whatever you like).

There are some corner cases with Maven that make things a bit more cumbersome than needed. But often one should first ask himself what's going to do. Personally I'm using the buildnumber plugin together with Mercurial, which is different than Perforce as it always produce a different changeset string (BTW, why are you supposing that Maven is nazi and not that Perforce is quite strange in the way it handles build numbers?). For instance build numbers can be 1.2.3-RC-3-SNAPSHOT-afecdfdfa... This make it possible to pick a very precise snapshot build given the Mercurial changeset. But when I perform the release I get 1.2.3-RC-3, that is I find useless to have the changeset since during a release Maven tags the SCM; thus from the tag I can query Mercurial from the changeset (indeed this is not even required as I can ask Mercurial to check out directly from a tag if I need to re-create the sources for a given build). In this scenario, I don't find which is the meaning of appending the buildnumber from the SCM - usually everything that is not needed is harmful.

Ok, others have already said something meaningful, I'd like to re-context the topic a bit. Maven is based on a *fixed* build workflow that can be customized with a certain degree of flexibility. The point is whether it is enough or not, but clearly it's in Maven nature to try to align you on its own way of working (this is in clear contrast e.g. with Ant or other script-based build tools when you can do whatever you like).

There are some corner cases with Maven that make things a bit more cumbersome than needed. But often one should first ask himself what's going to do. Personally I'm using the buildnumber plugin together with Mercurial, which is different than Perforce as it always produce a different changeset string (BTW, why are you supposing that Maven is nazi and not that Perforce is quite strange in the way it handles build numbers?). For instance build numbers can be 1.2.3-RC-3-SNAPSHOT-afecdfdfa... This make it possible to pick a very precise snapshot build given the Mercurial changeset. But when I perform the release I get 1.2.3-RC-3, that is I find useless to have the changeset since during a release Maven tags the SCM; thus from the tag I can query Mercurial from the changeset (indeed this is not even required as I can ask Mercurial to check out directly from a tag if I need to re-create the sources for a given build). In this scenario, I don't find which is the meaning of appending the buildnumber from the SCM - usually everything that is not needed is harmful.

Ok, others have already said something meaningful, I'd like to re-context the topic a bit. Maven is based on a *fixed* build workflow that can be customized with a certain degree of flexibility. The point is whether it is enough or not, but clearly it's in Maven nature to try to align you on its own way of working (this is in clear contrast e.g. with Ant or other script-based build tools when you can do whatever you like).

There are some corner cases with Maven that make things a bit more cumbersome than needed. But often one should first ask himself what's going to do. Personally I'm using the buildnumber plugin together with Mercurial, which is different than Perforce as it always produce a different changeset string (BTW, why are you supposing that Maven is nazi and not that Perforce is quite strange in the way it handles build numbers?). For instance build numbers can be 1.2.3-RC-3-SNAPSHOT-afecdfdfa... This make it possible to pick a very precise snapshot build given the Mercurial changeset. But when I perform the release I get 1.2.3-RC-3, that is I find useless to have the changeset since during a release Maven tags the SCM; thus from the tag I can query Mercurial from the changeset (indeed this is not even required as I can ask Mercurial to check out directly from a tag if I need to re-create the sources for a given build). In this scenario, I don't find which is the meaning of appending the buildnumber from the SCM - usually everything that is not needed is harmful.

While I mostly agree with Mark, the basic points are different: fashion and deployability. Fashion is something we can't control and fashion today is definitely with HTML 5. Deployability unfortunately is a problem, because while the Java Plugin improved a lot in the past years, it's not yet optimized and hassle-free up to the point to keep a comparison with HTML 5. In other words, if your RIA must be accessible to everybody and "in a few seconds" (I mean, it must also capture random navigators), JavaFX is not an option. Also consider that Java is no more preinstalled by default on Mac OS X and, even though things aren't completely clear to me, this has got an impact on the effectiveness of Java Web Start.

Given that, I think that JavaFX is excellent where Swing were and is excellent, that is in industrial applications (where you don't have problems with deployment) or in ad-hoc situations (where users are committed to using a service and can tolerate some problem with the installation of the client).

For what concern mobile devices, to me is clear that the world is going to be dominated by Android and iOS for a long time, thus JavaFX can't play a role there, unless Oracle deploys a sort of "adapter layer" reimplemented on Android widgets. I don't know how feasible / practical it can be.

While I mostly agree with Mark, the basic points are different: fashion and deployability. Fashion is something we can't control and fashion today is definitely with HTML 5. Deployability unfortunately is a problem, because while the Java Plugin improved a lot in the past years, it's not yet optimized and hassle-free up to the point to keep a comparison with HTML 5. In other words, if your RIA must be accessible to everybody and "in a few seconds" (I mean, it must also capture random navigators), JavaFX is not an option. Also consider that Java is no more preinstalled by default on Mac OS X and, even though things aren't completely clear to me, this has got an impact on the effectiveness of Java Web Start.

Given that, I think that JavaFX is excellent where Swing were and is excellent, that is in industrial applications (where you don't have problems with deployment) or in ad-hoc situations (where users are committed to using a service and can tolerate some problem with the installation of the client).

For what concern mobile devices, to me is clear that the world is going to be dominated by Android and iOS for a long time, thus JavaFX can't play a role there, unless Oracle deploys a sort of "adapter layer" reimplemented on Android widgets. I don't know how feasible / practical it can be.

To me the really important thing is to write tests, and of course you can write them after the code. There's a major pitfall, as pointed out by others, that it's harder to write tests after the code since usually without TDD the code is less oriented to tests.

There's another important point. If you first write the code and then tests, when the project starts to slid beyond schedule the team will try to recover time by skipping tests rather than realizing that the estimates were wrong. They have the false impression of being able to compensate, but are just building up technical debt. This leads to a disaster in the medium-long term. So, in the end I can sum up the point by saying that it's more likely to get a better test coverage by using TDD.

Personally I work mostly in TDD (say 70% of code code is TDD) and I enjoy it.

Given that we're commenting regex maps, I've been using another home-made since a few time. It works for my specific projects that needs it, but I never validated it against the Map contract. I'd like to get some feedback just while you're still hot about the topic ;-). It is not optimized with pattern compilation, but it does super.put() and has a shortcut for gets whose arg is not a regexp (which in my use cases happens 80% of the time). My impression is that designing an implementation that is optimized for a lot of generic cases *and* it complies with Map contract is a hard task.

public class RegexTreeMap<Type> extends TreeMap<String, Type> { @Nonnull public static String escape (final @Nonnull String string) { final StringBuilder builder = new StringBuilder(); for (int i = 0; i < string.length(); i++) { final char c = string.charAt(i); if ("[\\^$.|?*+()".contains("" + c)) { builder.append('\\'); } builder.append(c); } return builder.toString(); } @Override public Type put (final @Nonnull String string, final Type value) { return super.put(Pattern.quote(string), value); } public Type putRegex (final @Nonnull String regex, final Type value) { return super.put(regex, value); } @Override public Type get (final @Nonnull Object value) { final String stringValue = (String)value; Type result = super.get(Pattern.quote(stringValue)); // first try a direct match that is fast int matchLength = 0; if (result == null) // otherwise returns the longest match { for (final Entry<String, Type> entry : super.entrySet()) { final String regex = entry.getKey(); if (stringValue.matches(regex) && (regex.length() > matchLength)) { result = entry.getValue(); matchLength = regex.length(); } } } return result; } } 

Given that we're commenting regex maps, I've been using another home-made since a few time. It works for my specific projects that needs it, but I never validated it against the Map contract. I'd like to get some feedback just while you're still hot about the topic ;-). It is not optimized with pattern compilation, but it does super.put() and has a shortcut for gets whose arg is not a regexp (which in my use cases happens 80% of the time). My impression is that designing an implementation that is optimized for a lot of generic cases *and* it complies with Map contract is a hard task.

public class RegexTreeMap<Type> extends TreeMap<String, Type> { @Nonnull public static String escape (final @Nonnull String string) { final StringBuilder builder = new StringBuilder(); for (int i = 0; i < string.length(); i++) { final char c = string.charAt(i); if ("[\\^$.|?*+()".contains("" + c)) { builder.append('\\'); } builder.append(c); } return builder.toString(); } @Override public Type put (final @Nonnull String string, final Type value) { return super.put(Pattern.quote(string), value); } public Type putRegex (final @Nonnull String regex, final Type value) { return super.put(regex, value); } @Override public Type get (final @Nonnull Object value) { final String stringValue = (String)value; Type result = super.get(Pattern.quote(stringValue)); // first try a direct match that is fast int matchLength = 0; if (result == null) // otherwise returns the longest match { for (final Entry<String, Type> entry : super.entrySet()) { final String regex = entry.getKey(); if (stringValue.matches(regex) && (regex.length() > matchLength)) { result = entry.getValue(); matchLength = regex.length(); } } } return result; } } 

Well, it depends, even though I think you have most of the good points. The code reviewer might be continuously involved with the project, thus he could have comprehension of the business logics.

But it's very true that code reviewing is only part of the story and you need other things, including comprehensive testing, to assure a good quality of the product.

Well, it depends, even though I think you have most of the good points. The code reviewer might be continuously involved with the project, thus he could have comprehension of the business logics.

But it's very true that code reviewing is only part of the story and you need other things, including comprehensive testing, to assure a good quality of the product.

The examples you and James have proposed so far are too borderline for a complete evaluation. Since James told this is just the beginning of a series of posts I'm waiting for the next ones. In the meantime I can answer your question " how do you know that you’re not querying the internal state of the object?".

The question is no relevant. It's obvious that the internal state of the object is still relevant, otherwise it would be useless. The point is about coupling: you're not coupled through the internal state of the object, but through the interaction that is written in specifications. It's the minimal and correct way of coupling, since you can't do less, and it will change only when specifications change. On the opposite, if you expose the status you can potentially do everything with it. This means that TDA, in general, leads to more readable code, as it documents what's happening. If you read A methods and you find getStatus(), well, who knows what's going to happen? If you read doSomething() the situation is clear.

I've used TDA a lot in some open source projects and I can share and illustrate some code - still waiting to see the next posts by James. What I can say is that, from a practical point of view, there are some cases in which TDA doesn't change much. For instance, a TDA purist could assert that when I have to "print" the content of an object I shouldn't expose a asString() method (ask), but a renderTo(StringBuilder) (tell). In this specific case I say that there's not much difference: what you need is a String in both cases, it's clear that generally speaking that string is not part of the status, but it's just a function of the status, and when I say asString() it's quite clear what I'm going to do with it.

The examples you and James have proposed so far are too borderline for a complete evaluation. Since James told this is just the beginning of a series of posts I'm waiting for the next ones. In the meantime I can answer your question " how do you know that you’re not querying the internal state of the object?".

The question is no relevant. It's obvious that the internal state of the object is still relevant, otherwise it would be useless. The point is about coupling: you're not coupled through the internal state of the object, but through the interaction that is written in specifications. It's the minimal and correct way of coupling, since you can't do less, and it will change only when specifications change. On the opposite, if you expose the status you can potentially do everything with it. This means that TDA, in general, leads to more readable code, as it documents what's happening. If you read A methods and you find getStatus(), well, who knows what's going to happen? If you read doSomething() the situation is clear.

I've used TDA a lot in some open source projects and I can share and illustrate some code - still waiting to see the next posts by James. What I can say is that, from a practical point of view, there are some cases in which TDA doesn't change much. For instance, a TDA purist could assert that when I have to "print" the content of an object I shouldn't expose a asString() method (ask), but a renderTo(StringBuilder) (tell). In this specific case I say that there's not much difference: what you need is a String in both cases, it's clear that generally speaking that string is not part of the status, but it's just a function of the status, and when I say asString() it's quite clear what I'm going to do with it.

Well, splitting a not really long post in three parts doesn't look a good idea... in any case I'm going to comment only here.

Honestly, I'm a bit tired of still reading posts about how Maven is bad and see the very same, old, list of problems that can be fixed by using a couple of good practices, mainly the superpom. Seems that people start using Maven for a few days, doesn't look around enough, and then blog the same things over and over.

Very quickly: "locking the version of a plugin" is not a problem, is instead a good practice, otherwise you can't have repeatable builds. Do you figure it out what happens if you try to rebuild your project from a tagged commit of 6 months ago if in the meantime a number of plugins have been updated? So, you have to explicitly declare the versions of every plugin that you use. Not by chance Maven warns that in future this practice will be mandatory and if we have to criticize it is because they didn't it from the beginning.

Second: every long configuration stuff must go in the superpom, using properties for configurability. To change the Java version in all of my projects I only have to set two properties. I also have complex configurations for Vaadin, Jetty, AspectJ, Android, the NetBeans Platform, whatever, in my superpom and hardly need to have another plugin configuration section in any of my JEE, JSE, Vaadin, Android, NetBeans Platform projects. My customers using my superpom share the same benefits and their POMs are very small as well. All our projects thus share the same structures, conventions, release cycles and so on.


Copypasting a POM? Sure, people not skilled with Maven tend to do that, but in general people not skilled with a technology tend to misuse it. It's the project leader responsibility to explain best practices and teaching them.

Well, splitting a not really long post in three parts doesn't look a good idea... in any case I'm going to comment only here.

Honestly, I'm a bit tired of still reading posts about how Maven is bad and see the very same, old, list of problems that can be fixed by using a couple of good practices, mainly the superpom. Seems that people start using Maven for a few days, doesn't look around enough, and then blog the same things over and over.

Very quickly: "locking the version of a plugin" is not a problem, is instead a good practice, otherwise you can't have repeatable builds. Do you figure it out what happens if you try to rebuild your project from a tagged commit of 6 months ago if in the meantime a number of plugins have been updated? So, you have to explicitly declare the versions of every plugin that you use. Not by chance Maven warns that in future this practice will be mandatory and if we have to criticize it is because they didn't it from the beginning.

Second: every long configuration stuff must go in the superpom, using properties for configurability. To change the Java version in all of my projects I only have to set two properties. I also have complex configurations for Vaadin, Jetty, AspectJ, Android, the NetBeans Platform, whatever, in my superpom and hardly need to have another plugin configuration section in any of my JEE, JSE, Vaadin, Android, NetBeans Platform projects. My customers using my superpom share the same benefits and their POMs are very small as well. All our projects thus share the same structures, conventions, release cycles and so on.


Copypasting a POM? Sure, people not skilled with Maven tend to do that, but in general people not skilled with a technology tend to misuse it. It's the project leader responsibility to explain best practices and teaching them.

Timon, this is very interesting. I've been using JPA on the NetBeans Platform too, even though through these years I've faced only in a limited way with a "production" confrontation of the problem. What I'm saying is that in these years I've consulted for customers using the Platform with JPA, but only for a short-medium period (up to a few months); I've been using JPA for years with my own applications, but I lack a large base of measurements.

In any case, I was convinced too that JPA probably doesn't perfectly fit a desktop scenario: one of the issues was exactly the point of a bean always changing state. A few years ago I tried experimenting with some alternative approach (*): by using CGLIB etc... I tried to have a "stable" representation of the bean, which was not JPA managed, backed by some "hidden" JPA beans during transactions. It looked promising when I started, but after some time I got trapped in a cul-de-sac. It got too complex and some narrow cases emerged which persuaded me to give up with this way (unfortunately the thing still lingers around in some code).

The thing that I'm trying now is agent-oriented design. Since it leads to a model where the only shared data is immutable, it would eradicate the issue about beans being attached and detached and PropertyChangeEvents are out of sync. But I've just started with the experimentation and I'm just going to put transactions into the recipe.

(*) Actually my alternative approach wasn't with plain JPA, but with the persistence manager of OpenSesame, which is a RDF framework. But the concepts about transaction demarcation and attaching/detaching beans are very similar.

Timon, this is very interesting. I've been using JPA on the NetBeans Platform too, even though through these years I've faced only in a limited way with a "production" confrontation of the problem. What I'm saying is that in these years I've consulted for customers using the Platform with JPA, but only for a short-medium period (up to a few months); I've been using JPA for years with my own applications, but I lack a large base of measurements.

In any case, I was convinced too that JPA probably doesn't perfectly fit a desktop scenario: one of the issues was exactly the point of a bean always changing state. A few years ago I tried experimenting with some alternative approach (*): by using CGLIB etc... I tried to have a "stable" representation of the bean, which was not JPA managed, backed by some "hidden" JPA beans during transactions. It looked promising when I started, but after some time I got trapped in a cul-de-sac. It got too complex and some narrow cases emerged which persuaded me to give up with this way (unfortunately the thing still lingers around in some code).

The thing that I'm trying now is agent-oriented design. Since it leads to a model where the only shared data is immutable, it would eradicate the issue about beans being attached and detached and PropertyChangeEvents are out of sync. But I've just started with the experimentation and I'm just going to put transactions into the recipe.

(*) Actually my alternative approach wasn't with plain JPA, but with the persistence manager of OpenSesame, which is a RDF framework. But the concepts about transaction demarcation and attaching/detaching beans are very similar.

I'd say yes, with some annoyance. This morning I've embedded the Argyll CMS binaries into the application. I first updated the jarbundler sections as follows:

<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java"/>
<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/resources"/>
<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/executables"/>

<unjar src="${project.build.directory}/${project.build.finalName}.zip"
 dest="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java"/>

<jarbundler dir="${project.build.directory}"
 jar="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java/${netbeans.cluster}/platform/lib/boot.jar"
 mainclass="dummy"
 name="${tft.appbundle.name}"
 shortname="${tft.appbundle.name}"
 signature="${tft.appbundle.signature}"
 icon="src/main/app-resources/${netbeans.cluster}.icns"
 jvmversion="${tft.javac.target}+"
 showplist="false"
 build="${project.version}"
 bundleId="${project.groupId}"
 stubfile="src/main/app-resources/${netbeans.cluster}"
 version="${project.version}">
 <javafileset dir="src/main/app-resources">
 <include name="**/*.icns" />
 </javafileset>
 <javafileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </javafileset>
 <resourcefileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/resources">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </resourcefileset>
 <execfileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/executables">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </execfileset>
</jarbundler>

This just provides stuff to jarbundler for its three embedding areas: Java, resources and executables. The last section is important because everything here gets the executable Unix attribute, which is stripped from other sections.

So I just needed to add this in the application POM:

 <plugin>
 <groupId>org.apache.maven.plugins</groupId>
 <artifactId>maven-dependency-plugin</artifactId>
 <executions>
 <execution>
 <id>prepare-assets</id>
 <phase>generate-resources</phase>
 <goals>
 <goal>unpack</goal>
 </goals>
 <configuration>
 <artifactItems>
 <artifactItem>
 <groupId>it.tidalwave.blueargyle</groupId>
 <artifactId>argyll</artifactId>
 <version>1.3.5.1</version>
 <type>tgz</type>
 <classifier>macosx-intel-32</classifier>
 <overWrite>true</overWrite>
 <outputDirectory>${project.basedir}/target/appbundle/executables</outputDirectory>
 </artifactItem>
 </artifactItems>
 </configuration>
 </execution>
 </executions>
 </plugin>

It retrieves the binaries (previously published to a Maven repo) and unpacks them where jarbundler expects them.

It works, but every file from Argyll is marked as executable (including README.txt and other stuff). Not an issue per se, of course, just an annoyance. It's also related to the fact that Argyll CMS is not my project, is AGPL and for sake of correctness I prefer to bundle the whole distribution as is (without this requirement I could extract stuff in a selective way, e.g. only binaries; or putting binaries in a folder and all the other stuff in another, etc...).

Argyll doesn't contain links: I don't know how jarbundler manages them. But I don't think a JDK bundle contains them.

For the record, Apple is working at a bundable JRE artifact: see http://java.net/jira/browse/MACOSX_PORT-105.

I'd say yes, with some annoyance. This morning I've embedded the Argyll CMS binaries into the application. I first updated the jarbundler sections as follows:

<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java"/>
<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/resources"/>
<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/executables"/>

<unjar src="${project.build.directory}/${project.build.finalName}.zip"
 dest="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java"/>

<jarbundler dir="${project.build.directory}"
 jar="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java/${netbeans.cluster}/platform/lib/boot.jar"
 mainclass="dummy"
 name="${tft.appbundle.name}"
 shortname="${tft.appbundle.name}"
 signature="${tft.appbundle.signature}"
 icon="src/main/app-resources/${netbeans.cluster}.icns"
 jvmversion="${tft.javac.target}+"
 showplist="false"
 build="${project.version}"
 bundleId="${project.groupId}"
 stubfile="src/main/app-resources/${netbeans.cluster}"
 version="${project.version}">
 <javafileset dir="src/main/app-resources">
 <include name="**/*.icns" />
 </javafileset>
 <javafileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </javafileset>
 <resourcefileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/resources">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </resourcefileset>
 <execfileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/executables">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </execfileset>
</jarbundler>

This just provides stuff to jarbundler for its three embedding areas: Java, resources and executables. The last section is important because everything here gets the executable Unix attribute, which is stripped from other sections.

So I just needed to add this in the application POM:

 <plugin>
 <groupId>org.apache.maven.plugins</groupId>
 <artifactId>maven-dependency-plugin</artifactId>
 <executions>
 <execution>
 <id>prepare-assets</id>
 <phase>generate-resources</phase>
 <goals>
 <goal>unpack</goal>
 </goals>
 <configuration>
 <artifactItems>
 <artifactItem>
 <groupId>it.tidalwave.blueargyle</groupId>
 <artifactId>argyll</artifactId>
 <version>1.3.5.1</version>
 <type>tgz</type>
 <classifier>macosx-intel-32</classifier>
 <overWrite>true</overWrite>
 <outputDirectory>${project.basedir}/target/appbundle/executables</outputDirectory>
 </artifactItem>
 </artifactItems>
 </configuration>
 </execution>
 </executions>
 </plugin>

It retrieves the binaries (previously published to a Maven repo) and unpacks them where jarbundler expects them.

It works, but every file from Argyll is marked as executable (including README.txt and other stuff). Not an issue per se, of course, just an annoyance. It's also related to the fact that Argyll CMS is not my project, is AGPL and for sake of correctness I prefer to bundle the whole distribution as is (without this requirement I could extract stuff in a selective way, e.g. only binaries; or putting binaries in a folder and all the other stuff in another, etc...).

Argyll doesn't contain links: I don't know how jarbundler manages them. But I don't think a JDK bundle contains them.

For the record, Apple is working at a bundable JRE artifact: see http://java.net/jira/browse/MACOSX_PORT-105.

I'd say yes, with some annoyance. This morning I've embedded the Argyll CMS binaries into the application. I first updated the jarbundler sections as follows:

<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java"/>
<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/resources"/>
<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/executables"/>

<unjar src="${project.build.directory}/${project.build.finalName}.zip"
 dest="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java"/>

<jarbundler dir="${project.build.directory}"
 jar="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java/${netbeans.cluster}/platform/lib/boot.jar"
 mainclass="dummy"
 name="${tft.appbundle.name}"
 shortname="${tft.appbundle.name}"
 signature="${tft.appbundle.signature}"
 icon="src/main/app-resources/${netbeans.cluster}.icns"
 jvmversion="${tft.javac.target}+"
 showplist="false"
 build="${project.version}"
 bundleId="${project.groupId}"
 stubfile="src/main/app-resources/${netbeans.cluster}"
 version="${project.version}">
 <javafileset dir="src/main/app-resources">
 <include name="**/*.icns" />
 </javafileset>
 <javafileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </javafileset>
 <resourcefileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/resources">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </resourcefileset>
 <execfileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/executables">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </execfileset>
</jarbundler>

This just provides stuff to jarbundler for its three embedding areas: Java, resources and executables. The last section is important because everything here gets the executable Unix attribute, which is stripped from other sections.

So I just needed to add this in the application POM:

 <plugin>
 <groupId>org.apache.maven.plugins</groupId>
 <artifactId>maven-dependency-plugin</artifactId>
 <executions>
 <execution>
 <id>prepare-assets</id>
 <phase>generate-resources</phase>
 <goals>
 <goal>unpack</goal>
 </goals>
 <configuration>
 <artifactItems>
 <artifactItem>
 <groupId>it.tidalwave.blueargyle</groupId>
 <artifactId>argyll</artifactId>
 <version>1.3.5.1</version>
 <type>tgz</type>
 <classifier>macosx-intel-32</classifier>
 <overWrite>true</overWrite>
 <outputDirectory>${project.basedir}/target/appbundle/executables</outputDirectory>
 </artifactItem>
 </artifactItems>
 </configuration>
 </execution>
 </executions>
 </plugin>

It retrieves the binaries (previously published to a Maven repo) and unpacks them where jarbundler expects them.

It works, but every file from Argyll is marked as executable (including README.txt and other stuff). Not an issue per se, of course, just an annoyance. It's also related to the fact that Argyll CMS is not my project, is AGPL and for sake of correctness I prefer to bundle the whole distribution as is (without this requirement I could extract stuff in a selective way, e.g. only binaries; or putting binaries in a folder and all the other stuff in another, etc...).

Argyll doesn't contain links: I don't know how jarbundler manages them. But I don't think a JDK bundle contains them.

For the record, Apple is working at a bundable JRE artifact: see http://java.net/jira/browse/MACOSX_PORT-105.

I'd say yes, with some annoyance. This morning I've embedded the Argyll CMS binaries into the application. I first updated the jarbundler sections as follows:

<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java"/>
<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/resources"/>
<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/executables"/>

<unjar src="${project.build.directory}/${project.build.finalName}.zip"
 dest="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java"/>

<jarbundler dir="${project.build.directory}"
 jar="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java/${netbeans.cluster}/platform/lib/boot.jar"
 mainclass="dummy"
 name="${tft.appbundle.name}"
 shortname="${tft.appbundle.name}"
 signature="${tft.appbundle.signature}"
 icon="src/main/app-resources/${netbeans.cluster}.icns"
 jvmversion="${tft.javac.target}+"
 showplist="false"
 build="${project.version}"
 bundleId="${project.groupId}"
 stubfile="src/main/app-resources/${netbeans.cluster}"
 version="${project.version}">
 <javafileset dir="src/main/app-resources">
 <include name="**/*.icns" />
 </javafileset>
 <javafileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </javafileset>
 <resourcefileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/resources">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </resourcefileset>
 <execfileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/executables">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </execfileset>
</jarbundler>

This just provides stuff to jarbundler for its three embedding areas: Java, resources and executables. The last section is important because everything here gets the executable Unix attribute, which is stripped from other sections.

So I just needed to add this in the application POM:

 <plugin>
 <groupId>org.apache.maven.plugins</groupId>
 <artifactId>maven-dependency-plugin</artifactId>
 <executions>
 <execution>
 <id>prepare-assets</id>
 <phase>generate-resources</phase>
 <goals>
 <goal>unpack</goal>
 </goals>
 <configuration>
 <artifactItems>
 <artifactItem>
 <groupId>it.tidalwave.blueargyle</groupId>
 <artifactId>argyll</artifactId>
 <version>1.3.5.1</version>
 <type>tgz</type>
 <classifier>macosx-intel-32</classifier>
 <overWrite>true</overWrite>
 <outputDirectory>${project.basedir}/target/appbundle/executables</outputDirectory>
 </artifactItem>
 </artifactItems>
 </configuration>
 </execution>
 </executions>
 </plugin>

It retrieves the binaries (previously published to a Maven repo) and unpacks them where jarbundler expects them.

It works, but every file from Argyll is marked as executable (including README.txt and other stuff). Not an issue per se, of course, just an annoyance. It's also related to the fact that Argyll CMS is not my project, is AGPL and for sake of correctness I prefer to bundle the whole distribution as is (without this requirement I could extract stuff in a selective way, e.g. only binaries; or putting binaries in a folder and all the other stuff in another, etc...).

Argyll doesn't contain links: I don't know how jarbundler manages them. But I don't think a JDK bundle contains them.

For the record, Apple is working at a bundable JRE artifact: see http://java.net/jira/browse/MACOSX_PORT-105.

I'd say yes, with some annoyance. This morning I've embedded the Argyll CMS binaries into the application. I first updated the jarbundler sections as follows:

<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java"/>
<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/resources"/>
<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/executables"/>

<unjar src="${project.build.directory}/${project.build.finalName}.zip"
 dest="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java"/>

<jarbundler dir="${project.build.directory}"
 jar="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java/${netbeans.cluster}/platform/lib/boot.jar"
 mainclass="dummy"
 name="${tft.appbundle.name}"
 shortname="${tft.appbundle.name}"
 signature="${tft.appbundle.signature}"
 icon="src/main/app-resources/${netbeans.cluster}.icns"
 jvmversion="${tft.javac.target}+"
 showplist="false"
 build="${project.version}"
 bundleId="${project.groupId}"
 stubfile="src/main/app-resources/${netbeans.cluster}"
 version="${project.version}">
 <javafileset dir="src/main/app-resources">
 <include name="**/*.icns" />
 </javafileset>
 <javafileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </javafileset>
 <resourcefileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/resources">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </resourcefileset>
 <execfileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/executables">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </execfileset>
</jarbundler>

This just provides stuff to jarbundler for its three embedding areas: Java, resources and executables. The last section is important because everything here gets the executable Unix attribute, which is stripped from other sections.

So I just needed to add this in the application POM:

 <plugin>
 <groupId>org.apache.maven.plugins</groupId>
 <artifactId>maven-dependency-plugin</artifactId>
 <executions>
 <execution>
 <id>prepare-assets</id>
 <phase>generate-resources</phase>
 <goals>
 <goal>unpack</goal>
 </goals>
 <configuration>
 <artifactItems>
 <artifactItem>
 <groupId>it.tidalwave.blueargyle</groupId>
 <artifactId>argyll</artifactId>
 <version>1.3.5.1</version>
 <type>tgz</type>
 <classifier>macosx-intel-32</classifier>
 <overWrite>true</overWrite>
 <outputDirectory>${project.basedir}/target/appbundle/executables</outputDirectory>
 </artifactItem>
 </artifactItems>
 </configuration>
 </execution>
 </executions>
 </plugin>

It retrieves the binaries (previously published to a Maven repo) and unpacks them where jarbundler expects them.

It works, but every file from Argyll is marked as executable (including README.txt and other stuff). Not an issue per se, of course, just an annoyance. It's also related to the fact that Argyll CMS is not my project, is AGPL and for sake of correctness I prefer to bundle the whole distribution as is (without this requirement I could extract stuff in a selective way, e.g. only binaries; or putting binaries in a folder and all the other stuff in another, etc...).

Argyll doesn't contain links: I don't know how jarbundler manages them. But I don't think a JDK bundle contains them.

For the record, Apple is working at a bundable JRE artifact: see http://java.net/jira/browse/MACOSX_PORT-105.

I'd say yes, with some annoyance. This morning I've embedded the Argyll CMS binaries into the application. I first updated the jarbundler sections as follows:

<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java"/>
<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/resources"/>
<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/executables"/>

<unjar src="${project.build.directory}/${project.build.finalName}.zip"
 dest="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java"/>

<jarbundler dir="${project.build.directory}"
 jar="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java/${netbeans.cluster}/platform/lib/boot.jar"
 mainclass="dummy"
 name="${tft.appbundle.name}"
 shortname="${tft.appbundle.name}"
 signature="${tft.appbundle.signature}"
 icon="src/main/app-resources/${netbeans.cluster}.icns"
 jvmversion="${tft.javac.target}+"
 showplist="false"
 build="${project.version}"
 bundleId="${project.groupId}"
 stubfile="src/main/app-resources/${netbeans.cluster}"
 version="${project.version}">
 <javafileset dir="src/main/app-resources">
 <include name="**/*.icns" />
 </javafileset>
 <javafileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </javafileset>
 <resourcefileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/resources">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </resourcefileset>
 <execfileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/executables">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </execfileset>
</jarbundler>

This just provides stuff to jarbundler for its three embedding areas: Java, resources and executables. The last section is important because everything here gets the executable Unix attribute, which is stripped from other sections.

So I just needed to add this in the application POM:

 <plugin>
 <groupId>org.apache.maven.plugins</groupId>
 <artifactId>maven-dependency-plugin</artifactId>
 <executions>
 <execution>
 <id>prepare-assets</id>
 <phase>generate-resources</phase>
 <goals>
 <goal>unpack</goal>
 </goals>
 <configuration>
 <artifactItems>
 <artifactItem>
 <groupId>it.tidalwave.blueargyle</groupId>
 <artifactId>argyll</artifactId>
 <version>1.3.5.1</version>
 <type>tgz</type>
 <classifier>macosx-intel-32</classifier>
 <overWrite>true</overWrite>
 <outputDirectory>${project.basedir}/target/appbundle/executables</outputDirectory>
 </artifactItem>
 </artifactItems>
 </configuration>
 </execution>
 </executions>
 </plugin>

It retrieves the binaries (previously published to a Maven repo) and unpacks them where jarbundler expects them.

It works, but every file from Argyll is marked as executable (including README.txt and other stuff). Not an issue per se, of course, just an annoyance. It's also related to the fact that Argyll CMS is not my project, is AGPL and for sake of correctness I prefer to bundle the whole distribution as is (without this requirement I could extract stuff in a selective way, e.g. only binaries; or putting binaries in a folder and all the other stuff in another, etc...).

Argyll doesn't contain links: I don't know how jarbundler manages them. But I don't think a JDK bundle contains them.

For the record, Apple is working at a bundable JRE artifact: see http://java.net/jira/browse/MACOSX_PORT-105.

I'd say yes, with some annoyance. This morning I've embedded the Argyll CMS binaries into the application. I first updated the jarbundler sections as follows:

<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java"/>
<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/resources"/>
<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/executables"/>

<unjar src="${project.build.directory}/${project.build.finalName}.zip"
 dest="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java"/>

<jarbundler dir="${project.build.directory}"
 jar="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java/${netbeans.cluster}/platform/lib/boot.jar"
 mainclass="dummy"
 name="${tft.appbundle.name}"
 shortname="${tft.appbundle.name}"
 signature="${tft.appbundle.signature}"
 icon="src/main/app-resources/${netbeans.cluster}.icns"
 jvmversion="${tft.javac.target}+"
 showplist="false"
 build="${project.version}"
 bundleId="${project.groupId}"
 stubfile="src/main/app-resources/${netbeans.cluster}"
 version="${project.version}">
 <javafileset dir="src/main/app-resources">
 <include name="**/*.icns" />
 </javafileset>
 <javafileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </javafileset>
 <resourcefileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/resources">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </resourcefileset>
 <execfileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/executables">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </execfileset>
</jarbundler>

This just provides stuff to jarbundler for its three embedding areas: Java, resources and executables. The last section is important because everything here gets the executable Unix attribute, which is stripped from other sections.

So I just needed to add this in the application POM:

 <plugin>
 <groupId>org.apache.maven.plugins</groupId>
 <artifactId>maven-dependency-plugin</artifactId>
 <executions>
 <execution>
 <id>prepare-assets</id>
 <phase>generate-resources</phase>
 <goals>
 <goal>unpack</goal>
 </goals>
 <configuration>
 <artifactItems>
 <artifactItem>
 <groupId>it.tidalwave.blueargyle</groupId>
 <artifactId>argyll</artifactId>
 <version>1.3.5.1</version>
 <type>tgz</type>
 <classifier>macosx-intel-32</classifier>
 <overWrite>true</overWrite>
 <outputDirectory>${project.basedir}/target/appbundle/executables</outputDirectory>
 </artifactItem>
 </artifactItems>
 </configuration>
 </execution>
 </executions>
 </plugin>

It retrieves the binaries (previously published to a Maven repo) and unpacks them where jarbundler expects them.

It works, but every file from Argyll is marked as executable (including README.txt and other stuff). Not an issue per se, of course, just an annoyance. It's also related to the fact that Argyll CMS is not my project, is AGPL and for sake of correctness I prefer to bundle the whole distribution as is (without this requirement I could extract stuff in a selective way, e.g. only binaries; or putting binaries in a folder and all the other stuff in another, etc...).

Argyll doesn't contain links: I don't know how jarbundler manages them. But I don't think a JDK bundle contains them.

For the record, Apple is working at a bundable JRE artifact: see http://java.net/jira/browse/MACOSX_PORT-105.

I'd say yes, with some annoyance. This morning I've embedded the Argyll CMS binaries into the application. I first updated the jarbundler sections as follows:

<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java"/>
<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/resources"/>
<mkdir dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/executables"/>

<unjar src="${project.build.directory}/${project.build.finalName}.zip"
 dest="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java"/>

<jarbundler dir="${project.build.directory}"
 jar="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java/${netbeans.cluster}/platform/lib/boot.jar"
 mainclass="dummy"
 name="${tft.appbundle.name}"
 shortname="${tft.appbundle.name}"
 signature="${tft.appbundle.signature}"
 icon="src/main/app-resources/${netbeans.cluster}.icns"
 jvmversion="${tft.javac.target}+"
 showplist="false"
 build="${project.version}"
 bundleId="${project.groupId}"
 stubfile="src/main/app-resources/${netbeans.cluster}"
 version="${project.version}">
 <javafileset dir="src/main/app-resources">
 <include name="**/*.icns" />
 </javafileset>
 <javafileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/java">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </javafileset>
 <resourcefileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/resources">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </resourcefileset>
 <execfileset dir="${project.build.directory}/appbundle/executables">
 <include name="**/*" />
 </execfileset>
</jarbundler>

This just provides stuff to jarbundler for its three embedding areas: Java, resources and executables. The last section is important because everything here gets the executable Unix attribute, which is stripped from other sections.

So I just needed to add this in the application POM:

 <plugin>
 <groupId>org.apache.maven.plugins</groupId>
 <artifactId>maven-dependency-plugin</artifactId>
 <executions>
 <execution>
 <id>prepare-assets</id>
 <phase>generate-resources</phase>
 <goals>
 <goal>unpack</goal>
 </goals>
 <configuration>
 <artifactItems>
 <artifactItem>
 <groupId>it.tidalwave.blueargyle</groupId>
 <artifactId>argyll</artifactId>
 <version>1.3.5.1</version>
 <type>tgz</type>
 <classifier>macosx-intel-32</classifier>
 <overWrite>true</overWrite>
 <outputDirectory>${project.basedir}/target/appbundle/executables</outputDirectory>
 </artifactItem>
 </artifactItems>
 </configuration>
 </execution>
 </executions>
 </plugin>

It retrieves the binaries (previously published to a Maven repo) and unpacks them where jarbundler expects them.

It works, but every file from Argyll is marked as executable (including README.txt and other stuff). Not an issue per se, of course, just an annoyance. It's also related to the fact that Argyll CMS is not my project, is AGPL and for sake of correctness I prefer to bundle the whole distribution as is (without this requirement I could extract stuff in a selective way, e.g. only binaries; or putting binaries in a folder and all the other stuff in another, etc...).

Argyll doesn't contain links: I don't know how jarbundler manages them. But I don't think a JDK bundle contains them.

For the record, Apple is working at a bundable JRE artifact: see http://java.net/jira/browse/MACOSX_PORT-105.

@Mateusz Interesting point about functional programming not being popular yet. But in your opinion, what could make FP popular? FP is a programming paradigm supported/favoured by some languages. What usually happens is not that a programming paradimg makes languages popular, it's rather the opposite. It wasn't OOP to push Pascal and C++: rather Pascal and C++ pushed OOP. Thus, I wouldn't expect that FP pushes Scala. Scala might eventually push FP, but it doesn't seem to be happening. On the other hand, there could be other ways to push FP, for instance other languages or Java 8 enhancements (depending on the specific language support, we can have more sophisticated or lighter FP). In any case, if the latter thing happens, other languages or Java 8 will become popular. In the end, only Scala can push itself, don't expect external actors (*).

(*) With the exception of business ones. Let's all recall that Java has been pushed a lot by Sun, when it was healthy, and C# has been pushed a lot by Microsoft. ObjC is being pushed by Apple and JS by the companies behind HTML 5. Chances are that these are the only popular languages, or those increasing in popularity (with the exception of legacy such as C and C++). Personally, I think that after the '90s it's rather unlikely that a new language becomes popular without a strong business push. I don't see major corporates pushing Scala, so far. This could make a real difference.

@Mateusz Interesting point about functional programming not being popular yet. But in your opinion, what could make FP popular? FP is a programming paradigm supported/favoured by some languages. What usually happens is not that a programming paradimg makes languages popular, it's rather the opposite. It wasn't OOP to push Pascal and C++: rather Pascal and C++ pushed OOP. Thus, I wouldn't expect that FP pushes Scala. Scala might eventually push FP, but it doesn't seem to be happening. On the other hand, there could be other ways to push FP, for instance other languages or Java 8 enhancements (depending on the specific language support, we can have more sophisticated or lighter FP). In any case, if the latter thing happens, other languages or Java 8 will become popular. In the end, only Scala can push itself, don't expect external actors (*).

(*) With the exception of business ones. Let's all recall that Java has been pushed a lot by Sun, when it was healthy, and C# has been pushed a lot by Microsoft. ObjC is being pushed by Apple and JS by the companies behind HTML 5. Chances are that these are the only popular languages, or those increasing in popularity (with the exception of legacy such as C and C++). Personally, I think that after the '90s it's rather unlikely that a new language becomes popular without a strong business push. I don't see major corporates pushing Scala, so far. This could make a real difference.

First, I agree in general with the post.

@Michael Duerig. There's no need to write equals() manually. You can have it auto-generated by an IDE or just use the @EqualsAndHashCode annotation from Lombok. Perhaps when we compare something to Java we should target Java 6 at least, not Java from many years ago, right?

"and introducing incidental ones" Sounds cute but what does this actually mean?

Means nothing. Of course, it's true that there are lots of incidental complexities with Java. For instance, I've just seen a very curious performance bug that arose out from sorting a sublist. A contract was broken that the developer didn't know about. Contracts that you're unaware of, that's the most probable source of troubles due to incidental complexities. Now what's wrong in the quoted sentence is the false promise that with Scala there would not be incidental complexities. First, no language exists that brings zero incidental complexities. Of course, there could be more or less. C++ brought more incidental complexities because it was a richer language than Java. Scala is the same. The more powerful the language, the more incidental complexities. I can't find the reference now, but a criticism that arose from inside the Scala community (one of the developers if I'm not wrong) is that "every features is strictly related to each other" - and figure out how many incidental complexities may arise out of there.

Frankly, how I see things is that Google *is* targetting JavaScript. There's some ambiguity in Google words, possibly due to the need of keeping diplomacy with the JavaScript community (also in case Dart fails), but I don't see how Dart can't target JavaScript when it's presented just following the heaviest attack to JavaScript I've seen for years (JavaScript doesn't scale both in complexity and performance).

How I see things is a sort of GWT2 written in Dart, for what I can interpret Google's words.

Given the cited limitation of Java UUID, I use this tiny and very fast library:

http://johannburkard.de/software/uuid/

I could be wrong, but I don't think that in order to activate @PostConstruct you need Spring MVC, thus the dependencies you mentioned on Spring Web and Servlet. AFAIK,<mvc:annotation-driven> isn't the only way to go, as <context:annotation-config> is enough, and only requires depending on Spring Context.

I could be wrong, but I don't think that in order to activate @PostConstruct you need Spring MVC, thus the dependencies you mentioned on Spring Web and Servlet. AFAIK,<mvc:annotation-driven> isn't the only way to go, as <context:annotation-config> is enough, and only requires depending on Spring Context.

I think that Git is the most popular among DSCMs, but I am definitely a Mercurial guy. The two systems today can do the very same things (including branching, even though there are still a lot of people who believe that in order to branch with Mercurial you have to create a separate working area), but Mercurial is much, much simpler to understand.

CVS and SVN are still very popular in the corporates. CVS is a real problem and I always push my customers to leave it and pick SVN, at least. A DSCM can be overkill for most corporates, as Andrew said, and the complexity wouldn't pay for the advantages. So, harbouring at SVN is fine.

Still, there would be definitely some advantages for a corporate to use a DSCM, even though there's no people working offline. One for all, the release process with Maven is definitely smoother with a DSCM, as thanks to the separation between commit and push you can easily set up a workflow where you have a transactional release (I mean, either everything is fine, or the release fails with no consequences).

Before saying that I mostly disagree, I think it's necessary to make a preamble. "Evil" and "good" are often misused in our world. I think they are good for a brief title or for telling things with some humour, but "appropriate" and "unappropriate" are better terms. In other words, there's no black and white, but a scale of greys. There's no "true OOP" in practice, you can do things in many ways, paying some costs and getting benefits. The important thing is that you are aware of your choice, I mean, you are aware of what you are going to pay and what are you going to get, and you are consistent.

The basic point is not related to the danger of exposing the internal state. It's to depend on a public thing. For instance, if I have a Person with firstName, lastName and age properties, and I use them by means of getters, my whole application potentially depends on these three properties. If any of these properties change (let me say it disappears), you have broken code potentially everywhere. Of course, it's unlikely that a firstName, lastName disappears from a Person. So in this very example, one might assume that the risks of going with getter / setters are low. Let's just think of a more complex domain where properties are more likely to change.

In this case, the risks might be higher. What I'd do is not to expose those properties as public, but as package friends. If I have to render Person e.g. on a web page, I'd write a PersonRenderer which has a method render(Person, WebPage) [with WebPage I mean any infrastructure related to a give web technology to render something] which does the job. Should I send an email to that person, I'd use a similar friend class PersonEmailer, etc. With this approach, I know that the dependencies on the structure of Person are well known in advance and I can predict what impact will have any change in the structure of Person (of course, I can say the impact is very small).

Is it better or not? Sure, it's more complex, because I have more classes (even though they are very small and simple). I've written and Android application using this approach and, once you've understood it, it's not that difficult. But I agree, it's not necessarily always the best solution. See my preamble.

For what concerns DTO in DDD, there's a way to fix the anemic object thing which make it also possible to work without getter/setters: DCI. Google for DCI and read the Artima's article for quickly learning on it. In short, your entities get decomposed in an anemic object (what would be he DTO, called Datum) and a number of active classes (Roles) doing operations on it. Roles are not services, since there's an instance of Role per each Datum. Without getter/setters the Datum basically has no methods. I'd have person.getRenderer().renderTo(renderable) for rendering it, or person.getEmailer().sendEmailTo(recipient) in a simple fashion. If I am concerned about decoupling dependencies, I can have a dynamic approach as person.getRole(Renderer).renderTo(renderable) [or a better syntax that I prefer, person.as(Renderer).renderTo(renderable)], and roles can be dynamically injected in a number of ways.To deal with frameworks that absolutely want getters/setters as JPA, I can have person.as(Persistable).persist(), where the specific implementation of Persistable would copy the internal state of Person into a JPAPersonBean and do the job trasparently. You get that I have another advantage here, that I can replace the persistence mechanism as I want.

This is very powerful, very extensible, very robust. It costs a bit more than a plain design with getters/setters. In a way, I think it's a very appropriate way to use OOP, since the Single Responsibility Principle is respected to a very fine grain. In some cases, though, it can cost too much for the purpose.

Before saying that I mostly disagree, I think it's necessary to make a preamble. "Evil" and "good" are often misused in our world. I think they are good for a brief title or for telling things with some humour, but "appropriate" and "unappropriate" are better terms. In other words, there's no black and white, but a scale of greys. There's no "true OOP" in practice, you can do things in many ways, paying some costs and getting benefits. The important thing is that you are aware of your choice, I mean, you are aware of what you are going to pay and what are you going to get, and you are consistent.

The basic point is not related to the danger of exposing the internal state. It's to depend on a public thing. For instance, if I have a Person with firstName, lastName and age properties, and I use them by means of getters, my whole application potentially depends on these three properties. If any of these properties change (let me say it disappears), you have broken code potentially everywhere. Of course, it's unlikely that a firstName, lastName disappears from a Person. So in this very example, one might assume that the risks of going with getter / setters are low. Let's just think of a more complex domain where properties are more likely to change.

In this case, the risks might be higher. What I'd do is not to expose those properties as public, but as package friends. If I have to render Person e.g. on a web page, I'd write a PersonRenderer which has a method render(Person, WebPage) [with WebPage I mean any infrastructure related to a give web technology to render something] which does the job. Should I send an email to that person, I'd use a similar friend class PersonEmailer, etc. With this approach, I know that the dependencies on the structure of Person are well known in advance and I can predict what impact will have any change in the structure of Person (of course, I can say the impact is very small).

Is it better or not? Sure, it's more complex, because I have more classes (even though they are very small and simple). I've written and Android application using this approach and, once you've understood it, it's not that difficult. But I agree, it's not necessarily always the best solution. See my preamble.

For what concerns DTO in DDD, there's a way to fix the anemic object thing which make it also possible to work without getter/setters: DCI. Google for DCI and read the Artima's article for quickly learning on it. In short, your entities get decomposed in an anemic object (what would be he DTO, called Datum) and a number of active classes (Roles) doing operations on it. Roles are not services, since there's an instance of Role per each Datum. Without getter/setters the Datum basically has no methods. I'd have person.getRenderer().renderTo(renderable) for rendering it, or person.getEmailer().sendEmailTo(recipient) in a simple fashion. If I am concerned about decoupling dependencies, I can have a dynamic approach as person.getRole(Renderer).renderTo(renderable) [or a better syntax that I prefer, person.as(Renderer).renderTo(renderable)], and roles can be dynamically injected in a number of ways.To deal with frameworks that absolutely want getters/setters as JPA, I can have person.as(Persistable).persist(), where the specific implementation of Persistable would copy the internal state of Person into a JPAPersonBean and do the job trasparently. You get that I have another advantage here, that I can replace the persistence mechanism as I want.

This is very powerful, very extensible, very robust. It costs a bit more than a plain design with getters/setters. In a way, I think it's a very appropriate way to use OOP, since the Single Responsibility Principle is respected to a very fine grain. In some cases, though, it can cost too much for the purpose.

As it has been said, there's no meaning in calling for a comeback, since Java is still #1. Ruby & co. are very small niches - and yes, the enterprise is still using Java for their apps. We shouldn't think that the world is only made by cool things that are being blogged on.

Re: Python, I've got a question for Rick. I've recently run into OSQA, which you DZone guys are involved with. I've met it at answer.atlassian.com and I think it's great. I'm planning to use it for replacing JForum for my software products (in particular, an Android app which has got thousands of users). My only regret that it's made in Python - don't misunderstand me, I'm not a fanatic and I don't bash a good software because it's not in Java. It's that I'm a single-man company and I personally manage my servers, and Python/Django are currently not in my knowledge. But it's likely I'll go that way.

In any case, I first searched for an equivalent web app made in Java, which would simplify my job. I found that you have Qato, made in JEE - but it's not free, so I'll probably stay with OSQA. But I think it's an interesting point that OSQA, free and not labeled as "enterprise", is made in Python, while Qato, labeled "enterprise" is made in JEE. Only marketing stuff, or are there technical reasons?

As it has been said, there's no meaning in calling for a comeback, since Java is still #1. Ruby & co. are very small niches - and yes, the enterprise is still using Java for their apps. We shouldn't think that the world is only made by cool things that are being blogged on.

Re: Python, I've got a question for Rick. I've recently run into OSQA, which you DZone guys are involved with. I've met it at answer.atlassian.com and I think it's great. I'm planning to use it for replacing JForum for my software products (in particular, an Android app which has got thousands of users). My only regret that it's made in Python - don't misunderstand me, I'm not a fanatic and I don't bash a good software because it's not in Java. It's that I'm a single-man company and I personally manage my servers, and Python/Django are currently not in my knowledge. But it's likely I'll go that way.

In any case, I first searched for an equivalent web app made in Java, which would simplify my job. I found that you have Qato, made in JEE - but it's not free, so I'll probably stay with OSQA. But I think it's an interesting point that OSQA, free and not labeled as "enterprise", is made in Python, while Qato, labeled "enterprise" is made in JEE. Only marketing stuff, or are there technical reasons?

Comments above seems to miss the point that Google made, that is that JavaScript is supposed to be unable to scale for being used in large projects and for intrinsic limitations about the speed that a JIT can achieve. I don't know whether the two claims are true or just an excuse for Google to try to push a new product on its own. The fact that one of the two Dart authors is the guy behind V8 gives at least some hints that they know what they are talking about.

So, instead of discussing about yet another language, it would be more interesting to understand whether the two claims made by Google are true.

Comments above seems to miss the point that Google made, that is that JavaScript is supposed to be unable to scale for being used in large projects and for intrinsic limitations about the speed that a JIT can achieve. I don't know whether the two claims are true or just an excuse for Google to try to push a new product on its own. The fact that one of the two Dart authors is the guy behind V8 gives at least some hints that they know what they are talking about.

So, instead of discussing about yet another language, it would be more interesting to understand whether the two claims made by Google are true.

@Jonathan Fisher It's perfectly possible to have common behaviours in "cross-cutting" mode. You just create profiles in your superpom - this doesn't mean that all your projects will have a "common blood line" since profiles are not active by default. Profiles should be activatable by looking at the presence of a certain file. In this way I can have all war / android / jetty / aspectj modules working in the same way. More info at http://weblogs.java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici/archive/2011/07/19/maven-pom-composition-means-profiles . In any case, Maven 3.1 will introduce traits.

Given that, it's true that "the users are what they are". Indeed, generally speaking most of the software around is written in a poor way, be it using Maven, Hibernate, or whatever. Probably the whole IT segment should fade away.

Nicolas, you nailed it. I've had a similar post in my buffer for some time, especially after a discussion at JUG MIlano, a few months ago. In that circumstance, for instance, a fellow found that a lot of the dependencies he was using weren't declaring their license. Of course, no impact on the build so this is a minor problem, still it's a proof of bad POMs around since it takes a few second to fix it and having complete metadata is a plus for users.

Jilles, I don't understand your comment. Maven could have some problems, but I don't understand how internals are related to the POM structure, at least in the simple type of examples we're making.

Question. Does exist a sort-of-findbugs for Maven? I mean a QA tool which points out bad practices such as those we're talking of. I think it would make a lot of sense.

I'm definitely not an expert of this type of optimizations, but clearly this is a proof of how easy is to misinterpret a microbenchmark. There are good explanations in the previous comments - I'd add that it would make more sense either to run the two tests in two different runs (I mean, restarting the main()), or start measuring time in the middle of the loop, when a good number of iterations has been executed, thus the optimization "warmed up". But I can't prevent myself from thinking that such microbenchmarks are pointless. In a real application a lot of complex interactions with the JIT optimizer occur. I think that it makes only sense to benchmark the real thing.

I'm definitely not an expert of this type of optimizations, but clearly this is a proof of how easy is to misinterpret a microbenchmark. There are good explanations in the previous comments - I'd add that it would make more sense either to run the two tests in two different runs (I mean, restarting the main()), or start measuring time in the middle of the loop, when a good number of iterations has been executed, thus the optimization "warmed up". But I can't prevent myself from thinking that such microbenchmarks are pointless. In a real application a lot of complex interactions with the JIT optimizer occur. I think that it makes only sense to benchmark the real thing.

Birthday is just an example, the broader generalization is that sometimes a date (or datetime) is meaningful in its own timezone. For instance, if I have an application that performs periodic tasks during the day (such as turning on and off the light, or some equipment), it does make sense to refer to the local time rather than UTC (even inside the same timezone, if it used UTC you would be forced to perform adjustments when daylight savings are enabled / disabled, which is an over complexity: the point is that I'm supposing that the specifications say "always the same hour in local time", and this concept must be represented as is in my model and persistence storage).

Other examples might be a repository of historical events or holidays - I'm thinking of e.g. a repository of knowledge (e.g. popular dates in the world). For instance, May 1st is celebrated in many countries as a festivity and every country refers generically to it as May 1st, not counting the timezone; people in New Zeland know that the US Independence Day is July 4th, even though in their timezone it's probably July 5th, etc.

There are some workarounds to prevent constant inlining, described by Bloch and others - for instance, prepending a dummy expression between the value such as:

public static final Object CONSTANT = (1 != 0) ? SomeOther.VALUE : null;

I wonder why JodaTime contrib doesn't use the trick. When you explain to some customer that you have to "patch" JodaTime Hibernate contrib, they usually prefer not to use it (keeping java.util.Date only for persistence, and JodaTime for the rest of the application).

Martin, I've read your code example since when you posted it and I didn't comment to stay focused on the point of performance. From the API design point of view, I feel ever stronger objections :-)

First, your code example actually demostrates that String.split() is poorly designed - according to one perspective, read below - because it returns an array rather than a collection of strings. If it did, the body of the loop would be the single line:

lines.add(string.split());

which is rather terse and easy to read. BTW, there are a lot of reasons for which String.split() is an array, mainly related to the fact that we're talking to that very specific API that's a language runtime: String is a "sort-of" primitive type and I see issues in making it to depend on a concrete List. This specific case apart, I'd say that generally speaking the only reason for returning an array rather than a Collection is ... premature optimization. ;-)

More in general, if you're designing an API and let the API users to decide what to do... you're going to hurt yourself badly. You can have dozens of different users wanting different things and if you're not able to *impose* your style, you'll likely run out of control. Of course, it is expectable that a single style of API doesn't fit all needs.

In any case, for the API discussion, the stronger argument against passing a collection to be filled is that you're exposing your internal state - already said in a previous answer. I didn't try, but I think there are chances FindBugs would warn about it as a bad practice, much in the same way as when you expose a mutable object through a getter method.

Martin, I've read your code example since when you posted it and I didn't comment to stay focused on the point of performance. From the API design point of view, I feel ever stronger objections :-)

First, your code example actually demostrates that String.split() is poorly designed - according to one perspective, read below - because it returns an array rather than a collection of strings. If it did, the body of the loop would be the single line:

lines.add(string.split());

which is rather terse and easy to read. BTW, there are a lot of reasons for which String.split() is an array, mainly related to the fact that we're talking to that very specific API that's a language runtime: String is a "sort-of" primitive type and I see issues in making it to depend on a concrete List. This specific case apart, I'd say that generally speaking the only reason for returning an array rather than a Collection is ... premature optimization. ;-)

More in general, if you're designing an API and let the API users to decide what to do... you're going to hurt yourself badly. You can have dozens of different users wanting different things and if you're not able to *impose* your style, you'll likely run out of control. Of course, it is expectable that a single style of API doesn't fit all needs.

In any case, for the API discussion, the stronger argument against passing a collection to be filled is that you're exposing your internal state - already said in a previous answer. I didn't try, but I think there are chances FindBugs would warn about it as a bad practice, much in the same way as when you expose a mutable object through a getter method.

+1 to Mladen, Eric, Mason. I add that the reason for being worried in Java about premature optimisation is that since 1.5, mostly 1.6 and figure out 1.7, the GC behaviour is so complex that its basically unpredictable in most real-world scenarios. Matt, you didn't say wrong things about small/large objects and their capability to fit in Eden, etc... But this is qualitative reasoning. In practice things are much more complex and probably depend a lot on the configuration (heap size, VM, VM options, etc...).

Frankly speaking, within my network of direct and indirect contacts there is only a single person that I trust as someone who really knows inner stuff in the GC and it's Kirk Pepperdine, who's an expert of Java performance (of course, people at Oracle developing the GC know too, but I don't interact with them). And Kirk is the first one to warn about premature optimization.

So, in the end, I'm not saying that I'd never do things such as Matt proposes. It's that I wouldn't start code like that, but when I've a codebase large enough to start running performance tests, I'd start to measure and eventually change the code when measurements prove that I have an advantage. And I'd redo those tests again and again, since it's not unlikely that a further refactoring wipes away the whole need of splitting that array of strings, thus eradicating the problem at the root (with chances of creating another performance problem in another place).

+1 to Mladen, Eric, Mason. I add that the reason for being worried in Java about premature optimisation is that since 1.5, mostly 1.6 and figure out 1.7, the GC behaviour is so complex that its basically unpredictable in most real-world scenarios. Matt, you didn't say wrong things about small/large objects and their capability to fit in Eden, etc... But this is qualitative reasoning. In practice things are much more complex and probably depend a lot on the configuration (heap size, VM, VM options, etc...).

Frankly speaking, within my network of direct and indirect contacts there is only a single person that I trust as someone who really knows inner stuff in the GC and it's Kirk Pepperdine, who's an expert of Java performance (of course, people at Oracle developing the GC know too, but I don't interact with them). And Kirk is the first one to warn about premature optimization.

So, in the end, I'm not saying that I'd never do things such as Matt proposes. It's that I wouldn't start code like that, but when I've a codebase large enough to start running performance tests, I'd start to measure and eventually change the code when measurements prove that I have an advantage. And I'd redo those tests again and again, since it's not unlikely that a further refactoring wipes away the whole need of splitting that array of strings, thus eradicating the problem at the root (with chances of creating another performance problem in another place).

I called it "black magic", because the dependency appears to come from nowhere. With JPA proxies you get that from the entitymanager, so even though it may look strange, it is obvious where it comes from.

Generally speaking I agree that everybody should only use stuff that he's comfortable with, but it's always worth while to make a rational check of our feelings. The dependency doesn't "come from nowhere": it just comes out of the @Configurable contract. It's just like the EntityManager of JPA being injected out of the @PersistenceContext, or any other stuff injected because of an annotation. All contracts declared by an annotation and enforced by a container. None of those objects is a "normal" object in the sense you're referring to.

True, Spring is not a "standard", in the sense that there's no specification etc... So what? I'd only be worried if it was an obscure product made by an unknown community... which is not the case.

Given that, people are of course free of choosing not to use Spring and stay with JEE, which brings us back to your point, where you're proposing JPA enhancements. GIven that Spring and JEE cross-pollinated a lot in the past, I don't understand why to reinvent the wheel with unneeded complexity, given that the @Configurable approach works. A single annotation on the class is enough for a contract that specifies that @Inject must be enforced also for JPA entities. For the implementation, if one doesn't want to depend on AspectJ, the thing could be made by an annotation processor, which is Java 6 standard.

I called it "black magic", because the dependency appears to come from nowhere. With JPA proxies you get that from the entitymanager, so even though it may look strange, it is obvious where it comes from.

Generally speaking I agree that everybody should only use stuff that he's comfortable with, but it's always worth while to make a rational check of our feelings. The dependency doesn't "come from nowhere": it just comes out of the @Configurable contract. It's just like the EntityManager of JPA being injected out of the @PersistenceContext, or any other stuff injected because of an annotation. All contracts declared by an annotation and enforced by a container. None of those objects is a "normal" object in the sense you're referring to.

True, Spring is not a "standard", in the sense that there's no specification etc... So what? I'd only be worried if it was an obscure product made by an unknown community... which is not the case.

Given that, people are of course free of choosing not to use Spring and stay with JEE, which brings us back to your point, where you're proposing JPA enhancements. GIven that Spring and JEE cross-pollinated a lot in the past, I don't understand why to reinvent the wheel with unneeded complexity, given that the @Configurable approach works. A single annotation on the class is enough for a contract that specifies that @Inject must be enforced also for JPA entities. For the implementation, if one doesn't want to depend on AspectJ, the thing could be made by an annotation processor, which is Java 6 standard.

"The problem is this: the maven release plugin doesn’t really work for continuous delivery."

Well, yes. It's right, but this is quite obvious, as the fact that you can't use a hammer as a screwdriver ;-) The maven-release-plugin is strictly related to the concept of working with snapshots and extracting a release every in a while (maybe even many times in the day, but always starting with a snapshot).

If you don't have the concept of "snapshot" you should just not use maven-release-plugin. BTW, what would do for you? :)

"The problem is this: the maven release plugin doesn’t really work for continuous delivery."

Well, yes. It's right, but this is quite obvious, as the fact that you can't use a hammer as a screwdriver ;-) The maven-release-plugin is strictly related to the concept of working with snapshots and extracting a release every in a while (maybe even many times in the day, but always starting with a snapshot).

If you don't have the concept of "snapshot" you should just not use maven-release-plugin. BTW, what would do for you? :)

Hmm... I've been a bit surprised by this post. On one hand, I started reading it with disagreement, given the title and the preamble. On the other, I agree with the contents. Probably it's a matter of wording and how to interpret that "Driven"?

So, I agree with the general sentiment you express, in particular the idea that when to spot regressions in low-level code you have to build/run the whole app, or large parts of it, we're paying too much to get too little. What I don't get right is that the smell of a bad practice is precisely spotted by the Integration / Functional test boundary. I mean, there are cases in which an Integration / Functional test might be so simple not to be too expensive for the purpose I'm running it - consider, for instance, an Android application. This is not exclusive: a well-designed, modular application, even on the desktop or the server, can be split in independent components, each one still simple enough to have its Integration / Functional tests not too expensive to run.

On the other hand, I find it to be very expensive to have a whole layer of pure Unit tests to cover all the code. And thinking of "Driven", most of the times my TDD code starts with a functional test derived by a scenario / user story, which leads to the initial design of a number of classes at the same time. Of course, as they take shape, the test is likely to be split in simpler ones, but not necessarily Unit tests.

In other words, while I agree with this post, I'd not put the focus on the Unit / Integration / Functional boundary, rather on the concept of continuously evaluating how much a given test costs, and how much it delivers.

Hmm... I've been a bit surprised by this post. On one hand, I started reading it with disagreement, given the title and the preamble. On the other, I agree with the contents. Probably it's a matter of wording and how to interpret that "Driven"?

So, I agree with the general sentiment you express, in particular the idea that when to spot regressions in low-level code you have to build/run the whole app, or large parts of it, we're paying too much to get too little. What I don't get right is that the smell of a bad practice is precisely spotted by the Integration / Functional test boundary. I mean, there are cases in which an Integration / Functional test might be so simple not to be too expensive for the purpose I'm running it - consider, for instance, an Android application. This is not exclusive: a well-designed, modular application, even on the desktop or the server, can be split in independent components, each one still simple enough to have its Integration / Functional tests not too expensive to run.

On the other hand, I find it to be very expensive to have a whole layer of pure Unit tests to cover all the code. And thinking of "Driven", most of the times my TDD code starts with a functional test derived by a scenario / user story, which leads to the initial design of a number of classes at the same time. Of course, as they take shape, the test is likely to be split in simpler ones, but not necessarily Unit tests.

In other words, while I agree with this post, I'd not put the focus on the Unit / Integration / Functional boundary, rather on the concept of continuously evaluating how much a given test costs, and how much it delivers.

Actually we don't know if this comes out of a listening to the community. It could be that Oracle acted on its own, and possibly the Apple public news of "deprecation" were a part of a negotiating strategy (that could have been started much earlier than we know). In fact, we don't know the detail of the deal.

For what concerns the sanity of our teeth, the solution is obvious: we of course start commenting about news just after five minutes, but we don't get too worried about consequences for some time, not thinking that the lack of an immediate communication from any corporate means a complete lack of strategy / interest / whatever.

Of course, these are good news and the closing of a very old problem in the community. This demontrates that having a strong steward is better than having a weak steward... at least for some things. Of course, we pay the strenght of Oracle in other ways (see Apache etc...).

"I don't think it is childish. Harmony is an open alternative."

I don't see the connection on the two points. I declared as "childish" the intention of perseverating with the boycott at JCP decisions.

"Apache, Eclipse, Google are communists"

Oh my God, no, no, and one more no... Even in the broader sense you mentioned, communism and sharing attitude aren't related at all to the reality. Apache, Eclipse and Google are excellent capitalists too. This battle is the struggle for growing as much as possible their own market share.

Otengi, in what planet do you live? IBM has dropped support to Harmony and Harmony is going nowhere.

Apache of course has got reasons for being angry, but at this point playing obstructionism is *stupid* and *childish*. What would be the advantage of having Java 7 still delayed? Are they sure that 95% of people voted them to boycott Java 7?

Frankly I don't understand why people can't just see that the market has two legs: the "community" and "the rest of the world". The community is the smaller part. For what I can see, Oracle is going to keep a free, FLOSS OpenJDK for the "community" and a premium, paid version of "the rest of the world". While I don't have any experience of the "buggy" software Oracle sells and how professional are Oracle's salesmen, I see that Oracle sells a lot. So I assume It's not so strange that they could sell the premium edition without problems (probably, with its cost embedded in a global offering of a vertical stack).

In the end, they could be able to do what Sun always failed to do, that is directly monetize from Java. If Sun had been able to do, they would be still alive and kicking.

PS It's not the license header that was misleading, but the 'org.apache.harmony.*" package.

In any case, referrals to copyright infringements were present in the original lawsuit since August.

Honestly, I'm not blaming much Apple for dropping Java. Mostly because this was completely expected, and I'm suprised that people got surprised about it. Furthermore, it's the announce of a deprecation and there's plenty of time for changing plans and / or business. For me, I've already spent my part of blame about Apple and Java in the past and the news don't add anything to it.

In this circumstance, I'd blame more Oracle for the communication - I mean, I assume they weren't advised in anticipation and they need some time to make a decision; fine. Then, I expect a communication from them (it could take some time, let's say a couple of weeks). That can be even negative (we won't support Java on Apple), for me it's fine, it would mean Apple is not part of their business, but they *have* to say something in coherence with the strong Java stewardship role they are assuming.

I would not personally scream for using Nimbus on Mac OS X, but it's clear that this approach would work only with engineers. End-users of the Mac platform want a coeherent user experience (there's a lot of "purity-oriented" people around that think that anything that is not pixel-perfect is not enough, and this is of course a gross-exaggeration; the true stays in the middle).

@Andries I'm not aware of any limitation of OpenJDK to be used on a mobile environment. What does make you think that it's impossible?

@Stephen Losing Harmony is a bad thing. We're surely less free, but not totally unfree having only OpenJDK. It's to be understood whether this remaining freedom is enough or not. I'd like to see some serious assesment of a scenario that suggests that it's not enough before getting worried.

Citing multiple implementations of JME doesn't sound reasonable: they caused the fragmentation (both in the runtimes and in the decision processes) and the very bad condition that today affects JME.

@Andries I'm not aware of any limitation of OpenJDK to be used on a mobile environment. What does make you think that it's impossible?

@Stephen Losing Harmony is a bad thing. We're surely less free, but not totally unfree having only OpenJDK. It's to be understood whether this remaining freedom is enough or not. I'd like to see some serious assesment of a scenario that suggests that it's not enough before getting worried.

Citing multiple implementations of JME doesn't sound reasonable: they caused the fragmentation (both in the runtimes and in the decision processes) and the very bad condition that today affects JME.

"no primitives"

And this would be "recognizable" Java?

"no primitives"

And this would be "recognizable" Java?

I don't think that the open source community is called to formulate the final sentence.

As Jacek said, what really pisses me off is the amount of money lawyers take just for formulating ambiguous wording. And they're slow too: the first discussion in front of the judge is scheduled for Nov 19, if I'm not wrong.

I don't think that the open source community is called to formulate the final sentence.

As Jacek said, what really pisses me off is the amount of money lawyers take just for formulating ambiguous wording. And they're slow too: the first discussion in front of the judge is scheduled for Nov 19, if I'm not wrong.

I don't think that the open source community is called to formulate the final sentence.

As Jacek said, what really pisses me off is the amount of money lawyers take just for formulating ambiguous wording. And they're slow too: the first discussion in front of the judge is scheduled for Nov 19, if I'm not wrong.

I welcome security researchers, in all cases. But I'd really like to read some comparative survey (*) - when one focuses on a single system e.g. on Android, it's easy for people to misinterpret (or to spread FUD) that the specific system is worse than others. My opinion is that all systems are more or less subject to the same (in)security levels, also because the user is always the weaker ring of the chain. For instance, the referred chinese malware is a wallpaper that reads your personal info: I mean, it's up to the user to understand that a wallpaper doesn't need GPS, connectivity and personal information access, so he shouldn't install it. It's a tough problem that has more to do with education than technology.

(*) I didn't read the whole PDF paper, but I searched for iPhone and iOS and only found a single reference in the bibliography. So I think I can safely assume it's not a comparative survey.

Before moving to Maven 1,5 years ago I thought the same as Tim. Now I'm a satisfied Maven user and I believe my productivity has definitely improved. It could be mostly an artifact management thing, and so it could have been the same with Ant + Ivy, but I strongly appreciate the CI easeness.

It's anyway something on which it's not possible to reach an agreement upon, as Geertjan said, because it depends heavily on one's own perspective. The Good Thing is that NetBeans IDE and Platform support well both systems.

Before moving to Maven 1,5 years ago I thought the same as Tim. Now I'm a satisfied Maven user and I believe my productivity has definitely improved. It could be mostly an artifact management thing, and so it could have been the same with Ant + Ivy, but I strongly appreciate the CI easeness.

It's anyway something on which it's not possible to reach an agreement upon, as Geertjan said, because it depends heavily on one's own perspective. The Good Thing is that NetBeans IDE and Platform support well both systems.

... but you can easily e.g. use the gmaven-plugin or the ant-plugin and bind a bunch of scripting in Groovy or in Ant to any phase of the lifecycle, without having to write a plugin.

Re: IDE independency, it's true. It's also true that all your projects, being JSE, JME, JEE, NetBeans Platform, Android, whatever, get all the same structure, which means it's easy to manage them, e.g. to add QA metrics etc... In other words, mvn findbugs:findbugs just works for any kind of project out there (while with Ant, you have to put your hands on possibly differently structured scripts).

... but you can easily e.g. use the gmaven-plugin or the ant-plugin and bind a bunch of scripting in Groovy or in Ant to any phase of the lifecycle, without having to write a plugin.

Re: IDE independency, it's true. It's also true that all your projects, being JSE, JME, JEE, NetBeans Platform, Android, whatever, get all the same structure, which means it's easy to manage them, e.g. to add QA metrics etc... In other words, mvn findbugs:findbugs just works for any kind of project out there (while with Ant, you have to put your hands on possibly differently structured scripts).

As it has been said, you have to define your super POM (and, hell, including it in every project is just a matter of a few seconds). Either you define your own, by augmenting it step by step with your experience, our you start with something such as Maven CALM: http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=55075

Since you're not using any super POM at the moment, I suggest you to try CALM. It is in my intentions to move from my own super POM to CALM as soon as I find the time to do.

rarely uses more than two formal type parameters, three or four being the absolute maximum.

Agreed - we're discussing what happens in the minority of cases. Re: javadoc, is not an option. javadoc is needed and good for readers and understanding what's going on; for pure code readability, javadoc/comments must be the last chance.

rarely uses more than two formal type parameters, three or four being the absolute maximum.

Agreed - we're discussing what happens in the minority of cases. Re: javadoc, is not an option. javadoc is needed and good for readers and understanding what's going on; for pure code readability, javadoc/comments must be the last chance.

Trust me, no one will miss it.

I think we can't trust you, because there's a number of people who are using it. Bad way to start a wish list hoping that some technology, that you "don't understand" but others do, goes away. Furthermore, there's no logic in your wish: the times of Sun with no money in which working on a project meant stealing resources from another are over. If Oracle works on something, it's committed on it.

Trust me, no one will miss it.

I think we can't trust you, because there's a number of people who are using it. Bad way to start a wish list hoping that some technology, that you "don't understand" but others do, goes away. Furthermore, there's no logic in your wish: the times of Sun with no money in which working on a project meant stealing resources from another are over. If Oracle works on something, it's committed on it.

Interesting, but as usual every fact must be considered in the context. In the linked Linkedin report I can read:

After Google employees went to...

• Microsoft (180)
• Yahoo! (141)
• Facebook (118)

Did you try CentralLookup? http://wadechandler.blogspot.com/2007/12/central-lookup-creating-central.html

In the past I've experienced similar "changed-focus-will-scrath-objects" effecs with the Utilities.actionGlobalContext() and, as you said, I didn't want to depend on a TopComponent (bad dependencies: the model shouldn't depend on a View). It turned out that the Central Lookup (wrapped by an EventBus, but this is a matter of taste...) was ok for me, as in the end is an independent model which doesn't have any interaction with the Platform (so, no unexpected effects).

Thanks for enlighting us about Oracle only wanting to make money. I had forgotten that, instead, Google with Android and the rest of their business is only pursuing the Good of the Mankind, because they don't do evil. How silly I am.

Now, back to the point, can you explain me why Google "is right" in boycotting JavaOne? If one stops for a moment from being a fanboy and thinks about net facts of this move:

1. Google won't lose anything, nor gain anything in the sue, since I don't see how the boycott can influence the trial.
2. Oracle will probably lose a few money because of a few people not going to J1 and some more bashing in the blogs. Clearly they already took those things into account before starting the sue - and J1 isn't the primary source of revenues in the Java ecosystem.
3. All the attendees will lose some value, because they pay lots of money for traveling to SF and attending J1 and will be deprived of some contents.

So, I've just backed my point, that the only people harmed by the boycott are attendees and members of the community.

For what concerns the 80/20 split of the community, I disagree. In fact there's some people, including me, that when a contention between corporates bursts out don't start screaming immediately their partisanship for one party and against the other, instead they wait and see to understand what's really happening.

Thanks for enlighting us about Oracle only wanting to make money. I had forgotten that, instead, Google with Android and the rest of their business is only pursuing the Good of the Mankind, because they don't do evil. How silly I am.

Now, back to the point, can you explain me why Google "is right" in boycotting JavaOne? If one stops for a moment from being a fanboy and thinks about net facts of this move:

1. Google won't lose anything, nor gain anything in the sue, since I don't see how the boycott can influence the trial.
2. Oracle will probably lose a few money because of a few people not going to J1 and some more bashing in the blogs. Clearly they already took those things into account before starting the sue - and J1 isn't the primary source of revenues in the Java ecosystem.
3. All the attendees will lose some value, because they pay lots of money for traveling to SF and attending J1 and will be deprived of some contents.

So, I've just backed my point, that the only people harmed by the boycott are attendees and members of the community.

For what concerns the 80/20 split of the community, I disagree. In fact there's some people, including me, that when a contention between corporates bursts out don't start screaming immediately their partisanship for one party and against the other, instead they wait and see to understand what's really happening.

Thanks for being logical, Reza. :-) We need that to counter the ever-spreading FUD and irrational attitudes.

Back to the point, there are a few things that hurt me. In particular, I'd like Google to speak clearly. Instead of saying "We can't participate at JavaOne 2010", I'd like to read: a) Oracle is practically preventing us from speaking - b) Our lawyers told us that it would be risky for the corporate if we speak - c) We're boycotting JavaOne.

If a) is true, then shame on Oracle. If b) is true, then shame on the law system, but we can't do anything about that. In any case, I don't think b) can be totally true - Bloch is also saying "we're searching for alternate venues to speak", so speaking in the open doesn't sound as a risk. If it's c) - sorry, but I say shame on Google. They would treat us, attendees and members of the community, as human shields in their war.

In any case, this makes me think that in future independently driven conferences (such as Devoxx, Jazoon, JAX, etc...) should be more and more supported by us, rather than JavaOne or Google I/O.

Thanks for being logical, Reza. :-) We need that to counter the ever-spreading FUD and irrational attitudes.

Back to the point, there are a few things that hurt me. In particular, I'd like Google to speak clearly. Instead of saying "We can't participate at JavaOne 2010", I'd like to read: a) Oracle is practically preventing us from speaking - b) Our lawyers told us that it would be risky for the corporate if we speak - c) We're boycotting JavaOne.

If a) is true, then shame on Oracle. If b) is true, then shame on the law system, but we can't do anything about that. In any case, I don't think b) can be totally true - Bloch is also saying "we're searching for alternate venues to speak", so speaking in the open doesn't sound as a risk. If it's c) - sorry, but I say shame on Google. They would treat us, attendees and members of the community, as human shields in their war.

In any case, this makes me think that in future independently driven conferences (such as Devoxx, Jazoon, JAX, etc...) should be more and more supported by us, rather than JavaOne or Google I/O.

Thanks for being logical, Reza. :-) We need that to counter the ever-spreading FUD and irrational attitudes.

Back to the point, there are a few things that hurt me. In particular, I'd like Google to speak clearly. Instead of saying "We can't participate at JavaOne 2010", I'd like to read: a) Oracle is practically preventing us from speaking - b) Our lawyers told us that it would be risky for the corporate if we speak - c) We're boycotting JavaOne.

If a) is true, then shame on Oracle. If b) is true, then shame on the law system, but we can't do anything about that. In any case, I don't think b) can be totally true - Bloch is also saying "we're searching for alternate venues to speak", so speaking in the open doesn't sound as a risk. If it's c) - sorry, but I say shame on Google. They would treat us, attendees and members of the community, as human shields in their war.

In any case, this makes me think that in future independently driven conferences (such as Devoxx, Jazoon, JAX, etc...) should be more and more supported by us, rather than JavaOne or Google I/O.

Thanks for being logical, Reza. :-) We need that to counter the ever-spreading FUD and irrational attitudes.

Back to the point, there are a few things that hurt me. In particular, I'd like Google to speak clearly. Instead of saying "We can't participate at JavaOne 2010", I'd like to read: a) Oracle is practically preventing us from speaking - b) Our lawyers told us that it would be risky for the corporate if we speak - c) We're boycotting JavaOne.

If a) is true, then shame on Oracle. If b) is true, then shame on the law system, but we can't do anything about that. In any case, I don't think b) can be totally true - Bloch is also saying "we're searching for alternate venues to speak", so speaking in the open doesn't sound as a risk. If it's c) - sorry, but I say shame on Google. They would treat us, attendees and members of the community, as human shields in their war.

In any case, this makes me think that in future independently driven conferences (such as Devoxx, Jazoon, JAX, etc...) should be more and more supported by us, rather than JavaOne or Google I/O.

I think that Odersky arguments are blatantly biased, as usual (*). Take the smartphone example. In the world the choice is not restricted to the two extrema, a morse equipment and a smartphone. There are many intermediate phones in the middle, such as those only with a set of fundamental set of features and a decluttered user interface.

Now, what's a phone for? To call people and speak. Compare two persons, one enjoying his smartphone and one enjoying his normal phone, and see them calling a friend. I don't see but marginal differences in how they place the call; after that, what matters is what they have to say to their friends (a metaphor for good architecture and design practices).

Of course, smart users will enjoy the many things that a smartphone offers. No doubt on that. But they are just a minority. Average users will instead be confused by the more complex user interface. My parents - and a lot of other people I know - find it very hard - if not impossible - to place a call with a smartphone.

Not to say that a big deal of people are buying a smartphone for fashion, and don't use but a fraction of the features it offers - a waste of complexity.

So, the smartphone example is perfect for my point: Scala is more powerful and fit for a minority of experienced programmers that can handle its complexity; Java is simpler, less powerful and fit for the average programmer.

(*) I find that one big issue with the Scala community is that - with exceptions of course - they present only biased discussions. While it's clear that everybody is biased, I think that it's smarter for one who want to push a new idea to play the devil's advocate and try to wear other people's clothes. Otherwise they won't gain any point - no big surprise Scala is still where it was years ago.

I think that Odersky arguments are blatantly biased, as usual (*). Take the smartphone example. In the world the choice is not restricted to the two extrema, a morse equipment and a smartphone. There are many intermediate phones in the middle, such as those only with a set of fundamental set of features and a decluttered user interface.

Now, what's a phone for? To call people and speak. Compare two persons, one enjoying his smartphone and one enjoying his normal phone, and see them calling a friend. I don't see but marginal differences in how they place the call; after that, what matters is what they have to say to their friends (a metaphor for good architecture and design practices).

Of course, smart users will enjoy the many things that a smartphone offers. No doubt on that. But they are just a minority. Average users will instead be confused by the more complex user interface. My parents - and a lot of other people I know - find it very hard - if not impossible - to place a call with a smartphone.

Not to say that a big deal of people are buying a smartphone for fashion, and don't use but a fraction of the features it offers - a waste of complexity.

So, the smartphone example is perfect for my point: Scala is more powerful and fit for a minority of experienced programmers that can handle its complexity; Java is simpler, less powerful and fit for the average programmer.

(*) I find that one big issue with the Scala community is that - with exceptions of course - they present only biased discussions. While it's clear that everybody is biased, I think that it's smarter for one who want to push a new idea to play the devil's advocate and try to wear other people's clothes. Otherwise they won't gain any point - no big surprise Scala is still where it was years ago.

Thanks for the review, James, but there's still a point that I can't understand, and you can't help me. In fact you're a professional, experienced and talented developer, while the Inventor is - AFAIU - targeted to less experienced people, and possibly even non technical people. Thus I'd rather to have feedback from that kind of people.

My biggest doubts are related to the fact that to have quality apps you need testing. This is not only a tooling problem (does Inventor have any support for testing?), but a cultural problem. Testing is underestimated even by professionals, figure out about non-professionals.

My point is not about the fear of a wave of low-quality applications that could strike us, as some think. Indeed, there are probably already tons of low-quality apps around, and customers make the selection. My point is that Inventor will indeed add tons of low-quality applications that will just sit in the dust of <50 downloads stuff. So no harm for us, but what's supposed to be the added value of those things? I only see the increase of the number of apps in the Market, a number that is good for marketing people at Google, but it's not beef.

Making a real effort to be positive and thinking of my own experience and app ecosystem, I could image some of my more advanced users to develop a very simple extension of my app, for very specific needs. It could take advantage of the powerful Activity/Intent integration facility of Android - but, hell, how many apps are really supporting this kind of integration? How many are documenting it in a way that is understandable by non technical people?

Thanks for the review, James, but there's still a point that I can't understand, and you can't help me. In fact you're a professional, experienced and talented developer, while the Inventor is - AFAIU - targeted to less experienced people, and possibly even non technical people. Thus I'd rather to have feedback from that kind of people.

My biggest doubts are related to the fact that to have quality apps you need testing. This is not only a tooling problem (does Inventor have any support for testing?), but a cultural problem. Testing is underestimated even by professionals, figure out about non-professionals.

My point is not about the fear of a wave of low-quality applications that could strike us, as some think. Indeed, there are probably already tons of low-quality apps around, and customers make the selection. My point is that Inventor will indeed add tons of low-quality applications that will just sit in the dust of <50 downloads stuff. So no harm for us, but what's supposed to be the added value of those things? I only see the increase of the number of apps in the Market, a number that is good for marketing people at Google, but it's not beef.

Making a real effort to be positive and thinking of my own experience and app ecosystem, I could image some of my more advanced users to develop a very simple extension of my app, for very specific needs. It could take advantage of the powerful Activity/Intent integration facility of Android - but, hell, how many apps are really supporting this kind of integration? How many are documenting it in a way that is understandable by non technical people?

I actually had to invent and implement literally tons of (sometimes awful) hacks and workarounds.

This doesn't contradict my point: the burden of implementing lambdaj is up to you :-P the implementer, and doesn't necessarily reflect on me, the user. In fact, not only it's important to clearly distinguish powerfulness from complexity (and I totally agree with your example referring to signal processing, complexity is a matter of entropy), but also on the different perspectives of the provider of a tool/library/framework and its user. I've only looked at a few things about Lombok internals, and I don't know how hard is to develop it; I only know that, from the user's perspective, I just have to add some annotations with very simple and clear semantics.

This matters because we don't need millions of tool/library/frameworks developers, but a very smaller number (thousands), and the community is rich enough to provide them. On the contrary, for the success of a language/runtime/tool/library/ecosystem, they must make feel good millions of developers.

And the final result of this effort is a library that works only on a (hopefully not small) subset of the cases I would had cover.

This is a good objection to my statement, and clearly it's a matter of trade-offs and our personal mileages are different.

I actually had to invent and implement literally tons of (sometimes awful) hacks and workarounds.

This doesn't contradict my point: the burden of implementing lambdaj is up to you :-P the implementer, and doesn't necessarily reflect on me, the user. In fact, not only it's important to clearly distinguish powerfulness from complexity (and I totally agree with your example referring to signal processing, complexity is a matter of entropy), but also on the different perspectives of the provider of a tool/library/framework and its user. I've only looked at a few things about Lombok internals, and I don't know how hard is to develop it; I only know that, from the user's perspective, I just have to add some annotations with very simple and clear semantics.

This matters because we don't need millions of tool/library/frameworks developers, but a very smaller number (thousands), and the community is rich enough to provide them. On the contrary, for the success of a language/runtime/tool/library/ecosystem, they must make feel good millions of developers.

And the final result of this effort is a library that works only on a (hopefully not small) subset of the cases I would had cover.

This is a good objection to my statement, and clearly it's a matter of trade-offs and our personal mileages are different.

Unfortunately it's difficult to find precise technical details on non-technical newspapers and magazines - I've read some similar inaccurate technicality on money.cnn.com and such. But those articles are not looking at a technical perspective and, even though people should really try to be more accurate, those details don't jeopardize their analysis (they could be right or wrong for other reasons).

But you've been inaccurate too: 1) Android does use parts of Harmony for the runtime, Dalvik being only the VM 2) The syntax is definitely Java 5 - also because when you develop for Android you use a regular Java compiler (from the Sun JDK, or Eclipse, or such).

Unfortunately it's difficult to find precise technical details on non-technical newspapers and magazines - I've read some similar inaccurate technicality on money.cnn.com and such. But those articles are not looking at a technical perspective and, even though people should really try to be more accurate, those details don't jeopardize their analysis (they could be right or wrong for other reasons).

But you've been inaccurate too: 1) Android does use parts of Harmony for the runtime, Dalvik being only the VM 2) The syntax is definitely Java 5 - also because when you develop for Android you use a regular Java compiler (from the Sun JDK, or Eclipse, or such).

For what concerns your last statement. Ellison said: Java is the most valuable assets of our Sun acquisition. So, what's the surprise?

Just a precisation. As I said in the preamble of my post, mine is not a forecast, in the sense that I really can't associate a probabilty to my scenario; it's not my job and I'm unable to make forecasts. I've just formulated a possibility, just to counterbalance the doomsday predictions (mostly made by people who are unable to make forecasts as well) and show that there can be even positive outcomes, so we can have a more complete picture. Only time will tell. In any case, James, thanks for quoting me :-)

Anyway, I'd like to point out that there are some business analists that are moderately optimistic as well: http://blogs.forbes.com/taylorbuley/2010/08/13/android-lawsuit-is-really-just-oracle-flirting-with-google/

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

I think there's a big misconception about what's happening. If I use OpenJDK, I can freely use the security and class packaging features that are part of this complaint, because the OpenJDL GPL license guarantees to me protection from patents infringments. If I developed something that is not Java and uses those security and class packaging features, I would be at risk of being sued.

I agree that software patents are flawed. But it's not true that large amounts of FOSS projects are at risk. Things that are built upon regular Java aren't, at least for the reasons that we're discussing about.

Edited to add:

There are many things that we're not understanding about this history. I think that before drawing any judgement we have to wait and learn more details.

Mark, the copyright infringement claim comes after all the patents and doesn't explain where the copyright infringement has occurred (it refers generically to Java source code, documents, specifications). Until this is clarified, I don't see the point. Also because, if any, at risk would be people who do a parallel thing to Java, not just people who develops a framework on it.

I don't see it always makes sense to ask "what's after", beyond Google. The patents are about using a certain kind of VM and if one should just be consequential, Oracle should be going to sue Microsoft and every other corporate who makes use of a VM. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think Oracle is going to declare war to the world. I think it's only acting against Google. I've read many doomsday warnings in the past ten years that frankly I prefer first to see some more details before declaring a disaster.

Mark, the copyright infringement claim comes after all the patents and doesn't explain where the copyright infringement has occurred (it refers generically to Java source code, documents, specifications). Until this is clarified, I don't see the point. Also because, if any, at risk would be people who do a parallel thing to Java, not just people who develops a framework on it.

I don't see it always makes sense to ask "what's after", beyond Google. The patents are about using a certain kind of VM and if one should just be consequential, Oracle should be going to sue Microsoft and every other corporate who makes use of a VM. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think Oracle is going to declare war to the world. I think it's only acting against Google. I've read many doomsday warnings in the past ten years that frankly I prefer first to see some more details before declaring a disaster.

Answer (the names of the allegedly infringed patents):

“Protection Domains To Provide Security In A Computer System”
“Controlling Access To A Resource"
“Method And Apparatus For Preprocessing And Packaging Class Files”
“System And Method For Dynamic Preloading Of Classes Through Memory Space Cloning Of A Master Runtime System Process”
“Method And Apparatus For Resolving Data References In Generate Code”
“Interpreting Functions Utilizing A Hybrid Of Virtual And Native Machine Instructions”
“Method And System for Performing Static Initialization”

Answer (the names of the allegedly infringed patents):

“Protection Domains To Provide Security In A Computer System”
“Controlling Access To A Resource"
“Method And Apparatus For Preprocessing And Packaging Class Files”
“System And Method For Dynamic Preloading Of Classes Through Memory Space Cloning Of A Master Runtime System Process”
“Method And Apparatus For Resolving Data References In Generate Code”
“Interpreting Functions Utilizing A Hybrid Of Virtual And Native Machine Instructions”
“Method And System for Performing Static Initialization”

For the record, I've copied the single patent claims from the cited document:

“Protection Domains To Provide Security In A Computer System”
“Controlling Access To A Resource"
“Method And Apparatus For Preprocessing And Packaging Class Files”
“System And Method For Dynamic Preloading Of Classes Through Memory Space Cloning Of A Master Runtime System Process”
“Method And Apparatus For Resolving Data References In Generate Code”
“Interpreting Functions Utilizing A Hybrid Of Virtual And Native Machine Instructions”
“Method And System for Performing Static Initialization”

As it has been said, there's no GPL or such infringement. If there was, Google would be sued for license infringement, not for patent infringement. As it has been said, those patents are really about low-level VM stuff and Oracle could probably sue everybody about that, including Microsoft for C#. And Java has little to do with that, since it's Dalvik to be under attack. So Google would not save itself in moving away from Java.

I think those patents are just a casus belli for Oracle and I think they will eventually reach an agreement. It's just another step of the Google - Sun war, continuning under Oracle.

For the record, I've copied the single patent claims from the cited document:

“Protection Domains To Provide Security In A Computer System”
“Controlling Access To A Resource"
“Method And Apparatus For Preprocessing And Packaging Class Files”
“System And Method For Dynamic Preloading Of Classes Through Memory Space Cloning Of A Master Runtime System Process”
“Method And Apparatus For Resolving Data References In Generate Code”
“Interpreting Functions Utilizing A Hybrid Of Virtual And Native Machine Instructions”
“Method And System for Performing Static Initialization”

As it has been said, there's no GPL or such infringement. If there was, Google would be sued for license infringement, not for patent infringement. As it has been said, those patents are really about low-level VM stuff and Oracle could probably sue everybody about that, including Microsoft for C#. And Java has little to do with that, since it's Dalvik to be under attack. So Google would not save itself in moving away from Java.

I think those patents are just a casus belli for Oracle and I think they will eventually reach an agreement. It's just another step of the Google - Sun war, continuning under Oracle.

This kind of transparency in planning has been rare for many of Oracle's acquired open source projects

Hmm... Perhaps this statement is too general. For instance, Oracle disclosed a roadmap for Glassfish until 2012, if I'm not wrong; they just disclosed plans for NetBeans 6.10 (there has been a delay in comparison of the previous Sun habits, but it has been due to the ripples of the Sun buy). Java 7 is still in some fog, but it has been there since before the Oracle buy.

I don't understand how Pivot could be responsible of the freeze. As it has been said, I rather think that it's a JVM issue. The security is probably the toughest point (again, of the JVM in general, not Pivot). For sure, it would be simpler for me to leave home for my holidays without taking care of securing all the windows and doors, but I don't think is a good idea. For mobile code, so far I only see three possibilities: 1) do nothing or just a few things (so you can stay in the default box 2) ask for confirmation for things that you need to do 3) run in a completely unsecured box and wait for the disaster to happen.

Unless some genius brings an innovative approach, it's more a social than engineering problem. It's true that there are pervasive technologies that are less intrusive. For instance, Android apps don't ask for confirmations - they just declare the permissions they need. Users are supposed to double-check what permissions are going to give, but I frankly think that 90% aren't even aware of what's happening. So far no major disaster happened... but Android is young. In any case, they have the control of the distribution channel and the kill switch, so one might suppose that a large security disaster that is going to happen would be detected early and stopped. JVM applets can't do this.

I don't understand how Pivot could be responsible of the freeze. As it has been said, I rather think that it's a JVM issue. The security is probably the toughest point (again, of the JVM in general, not Pivot). For sure, it would be simpler for me to leave home for my holidays without taking care of securing all the windows and doors, but I don't think is a good idea. For mobile code, so far I only see three possibilities: 1) do nothing or just a few things (so you can stay in the default box 2) ask for confirmation for things that you need to do 3) run in a completely unsecured box and wait for the disaster to happen.

Unless some genius brings an innovative approach, it's more a social than engineering problem. It's true that there are pervasive technologies that are less intrusive. For instance, Android apps don't ask for confirmations - they just declare the permissions they need. Users are supposed to double-check what permissions are going to give, but I frankly think that 90% aren't even aware of what's happening. So far no major disaster happened... but Android is young. In any case, they have the control of the distribution channel and the kill switch, so one might suppose that a large security disaster that is going to happen would be detected early and stopped. JVM applets can't do this.

When it comes to storing stuff, SQL databases are pretty much restricted to the enterprise and very specific application domains. There's a reason for this: most SQL databases would be a pretty bad match for the requirements of any of those. The same is true for many modern web applications, or indeed enterprise applications.

I beg to disagree strongly. SQLite is used by: Firefox, Thunderbird, Apple Mail, Safari, Google Chrome, Apple Aperture, Adobe Lightroom, iTunes, the iPhone/iPad/iPod, Android, perhaps even Skype, and as far as I know even some high-end Symbian phones. SQL is pretty pervasive and thanks to iPhone and Android it will be more and more in future. This doesn't surprise me because desktop and mobile applications are more and more demanding, must crawl high volume of data and people appreciate the consistency. Now it's really a matter of using the proper words: I appreciate a lot the ACID part of SQL databases. What I don't like is precisely SQL and the relational data model. That's why I'm constantly repeating that NoSQL at least means two families of use cases.

When it comes to storing stuff, SQL databases are pretty much restricted to the enterprise and very specific application domains. There's a reason for this: most SQL databases would be a pretty bad match for the requirements of any of those. The same is true for many modern web applications, or indeed enterprise applications.

I beg to disagree strongly. SQLite is used by: Firefox, Thunderbird, Apple Mail, Safari, Google Chrome, Apple Aperture, Adobe Lightroom, iTunes, the iPhone/iPad/iPod, Android, perhaps even Skype, and as far as I know even some high-end Symbian phones. SQL is pretty pervasive and thanks to iPhone and Android it will be more and more in future. This doesn't surprise me because desktop and mobile applications are more and more demanding, must crawl high volume of data and people appreciate the consistency. Now it's really a matter of using the proper words: I appreciate a lot the ACID part of SQL databases. What I don't like is precisely SQL and the relational data model. That's why I'm constantly repeating that NoSQL at least means two families of use cases.

As somebody pointed out during the JavaFX discussion of a few days ago, one of the still unresolved problems is the non-perfect VM deployment even in the latest Java 6 releases, at least in some contexts. This clearly affects all the VM-based technologies, including Pivot. Also, JavaFX has been criticized because of the still not smooth integration between developers and visual designers; this is an area that Pivot doesn't even address. So, if JavaFX is not reputed to be a viable alternative to Flex, I don't see how Pivot could be...

Of course, where JVM deployment and graphic designers are not a problem (this is normal for applications used in industrial contexts), Pivot could be a valid alternative for people who don't like the regular Java APIs. But in this contexts regular Java applets using Swing are perfectly fit to the problem and can deliver applications with really high complexity.

As somebody pointed out during the JavaFX discussion of a few days ago, one of the still unresolved problems is the non-perfect VM deployment even in the latest Java 6 releases, at least in some contexts. This clearly affects all the VM-based technologies, including Pivot. Also, JavaFX has been criticized because of the still not smooth integration between developers and visual designers; this is an area that Pivot doesn't even address. So, if JavaFX is not reputed to be a viable alternative to Flex, I don't see how Pivot could be...

Of course, where JVM deployment and graphic designers are not a problem (this is normal for applications used in industrial contexts), Pivot could be a valid alternative for people who don't like the regular Java APIs. But in this contexts regular Java applets using Swing are perfectly fit to the problem and can deliver applications with really high complexity.

The following statement doesn't make much sense to me:

If you're going to treat avoiding SQL specially, then you should have a NoProceduralProgramming, NoFunctionalProgramming, NoAssembler, NoShellScript and NoHTML movements, also.

Well, I don't do Procedural - I might do Functional, but I don't, in any case I don't see why I should hate it - I'm doing no more Assembler, nor ShellScript. I don't like HTML 5 etc..

But independently of my or others' personal preferences, SQL is different from the other technologies because 1) it has been there for decades and 2) it creates one of the biggest problems around which is OO/RDBMS impedance. So there are objective reasons, IMHO, for SQL to attract most of the "hate".

Of course you're right that people shouldn't jump into the dark and, above all, not because of fashion. I suppose there are in the world architects who go NoSQL with salt in their mind and others who don't - but this indeed applies to many other architectural choices, we're just telling that there's smart people as well as dumb people around.

My personal take with NoSQL is that I don't like the static RDBS schemata - so when I can I go with a RDF store, which in turn relies on a RDBMs. So I have classic ACID, but I don't see SQL any longer and can enjoy a persistence mode which is closer to my "concepts". I reckon that this is a minority view of NoSQL and that most people talk about the filesystem, which is a more drastic change.

In the end, it might be hype as well and perhaps in a few years it will be over (I don't think so, BTW - probably there will be a selection and many of the current products will die, but a few will survive and get to success). But it 's good that after decades people look around and try to discover whether it's possible to change an old way to do things.

The following statement doesn't make much sense to me:

If you're going to treat avoiding SQL specially, then you should have a NoProceduralProgramming, NoFunctionalProgramming, NoAssembler, NoShellScript and NoHTML movements, also.

Well, I don't do Procedural - I might do Functional, but I don't, in any case I don't see why I should hate it - I'm doing no more Assembler, nor ShellScript. I don't like HTML 5 etc..

But independently of my or others' personal preferences, SQL is different from the other technologies because 1) it has been there for decades and 2) it creates one of the biggest problems around which is OO/RDBMS impedance. So there are objective reasons, IMHO, for SQL to attract most of the "hate".

Of course you're right that people shouldn't jump into the dark and, above all, not because of fashion. I suppose there are in the world architects who go NoSQL with salt in their mind and others who don't - but this indeed applies to many other architectural choices, we're just telling that there's smart people as well as dumb people around.

My personal take with NoSQL is that I don't like the static RDBS schemata - so when I can I go with a RDF store, which in turn relies on a RDBMs. So I have classic ACID, but I don't see SQL any longer and can enjoy a persistence mode which is closer to my "concepts". I reckon that this is a minority view of NoSQL and that most people talk about the filesystem, which is a more drastic change.

In the end, it might be hype as well and perhaps in a few years it will be over (I don't think so, BTW - probably there will be a selection and many of the current products will die, but a few will survive and get to success). But it 's good that after decades people look around and try to discover whether it's possible to change an old way to do things.

You can use the very small EventBus designed for the NetBeans Platform. It's a very thin piece of code and only depends on the simpler module of the NetBeans Platform (org-openide-util). Indeed, since the recent release of NetBeans 6.9, the thing can be made to depend on a new split, smaller module (org-openide-lookup), which has removed a lot of useless dependencies and AFAIK (I haven't upgraded to it yet) it shouldn't be depending on Swing stuff. Please let us know whether you like it or not (and why). Thanks.

PS For the record, if you aren't acquainted with the NetBeans Platform, don't worry about the .nbm modules. In the Maven repository you can depend on plain .jar as well.

You can use the very small EventBus designed for the NetBeans Platform. It's a very thin piece of code and only depends on the simpler module of the NetBeans Platform (org-openide-util). Indeed, since the recent release of NetBeans 6.9, the thing can be made to depend on a new split, smaller module (org-openide-lookup), which has removed a lot of useless dependencies and AFAIK (I haven't upgraded to it yet) it shouldn't be depending on Swing stuff. Please let us know whether you like it or not (and why). Thanks.

PS For the record, if you aren't acquainted with the NetBeans Platform, don't worry about the .nbm modules. In the Maven repository you can depend on plain .jar as well.

I'll add that plaing Swing is not good on Mac OS X, but things vastly improve when you use the Quaqua L&F (which is a L&F for Swing, not SWT). You even get "modal sheets" (or what Apple calls them) and the proper file picker of Mac OS X. It requires some work of course, but it can be done. So, saying that Swing WORA doesn't work is false - it just requires, unfortunately, much work than you expected from the WORA promise.

Furthermore, there are lots of third party libraries on Swing, starting from SwingX just to make an example, that make customers happy because they feel they have a reasonably complete set of widgets to use.

Frankly I completely understand Edvin's point of view, since it's what I experienced in 2005, when first I convinced myself to rewrite a Swing application to Eclipse RCP, started studying it and later gave up because I didn't see what I wanted. Things worked fine with NetBeans RCP and of course I had to work less since I didn't have to abandon Swing. Note that at the time I wasn't such a strong supporter of NetBeans; I'd been using Eclipse since 2001 (probably), in the past I even refused to use the NetBeans IDE for some Sun projects I led (because, in addition to my own preference about the Eclipse IDE at the time, even my developers voted for the Eclipse IDE), thus there was no prejudice.

Furthermore, when I switched to Mac OS X and passed through the migration of the continous change of native facilities of Apple about graphics (Carbon, Cocoa,...), I got pretty frustrated about the constant problems that Eclipse had with it because of SWT (sometime I still need to use Eclipse if a customer asks me). I had almost zero problems with Swing. While SWT could have been good in the old times, I see it now only as a source of problems and no relevant advantages.

At last, I find it very good that I can choose the NBM module system or the OSGi module system. The former is pretty good for me and I use it when I don't have any specific requirement. I should add that the fact that it works well is demonstrated by the facility of upgrading and installing plugins in the NetBeans IDE. On the contrary, plugins with Eclipse have been always another source of trouble - and I keep on hearing people complaining about broken Eclipse plugin every time, at work and at the JUG, even by people who still prefer the Eclipse IDE to the NetBeans IDE. Thus, for me there are no doubts that the NetBeans RCP wins on Eclipse RCP.

I'll add that plaing Swing is not good on Mac OS X, but things vastly improve when you use the Quaqua L&F (which is a L&F for Swing, not SWT). You even get "modal sheets" (or what Apple calls them) and the proper file picker of Mac OS X. It requires some work of course, but it can be done. So, saying that Swing WORA doesn't work is false - it just requires, unfortunately, much work than you expected from the WORA promise.

Furthermore, there are lots of third party libraries on Swing, starting from SwingX just to make an example, that make customers happy because they feel they have a reasonably complete set of widgets to use.

Frankly I completely understand Edvin's point of view, since it's what I experienced in 2005, when first I convinced myself to rewrite a Swing application to Eclipse RCP, started studying it and later gave up because I didn't see what I wanted. Things worked fine with NetBeans RCP and of course I had to work less since I didn't have to abandon Swing. Note that at the time I wasn't such a strong supporter of NetBeans; I'd been using Eclipse since 2001 (probably), in the past I even refused to use the NetBeans IDE for some Sun projects I led (because, in addition to my own preference about the Eclipse IDE at the time, even my developers voted for the Eclipse IDE), thus there was no prejudice.

Furthermore, when I switched to Mac OS X and passed through the migration of the continous change of native facilities of Apple about graphics (Carbon, Cocoa,...), I got pretty frustrated about the constant problems that Eclipse had with it because of SWT (sometime I still need to use Eclipse if a customer asks me). I had almost zero problems with Swing. While SWT could have been good in the old times, I see it now only as a source of problems and no relevant advantages.

At last, I find it very good that I can choose the NBM module system or the OSGi module system. The former is pretty good for me and I use it when I don't have any specific requirement. I should add that the fact that it works well is demonstrated by the facility of upgrading and installing plugins in the NetBeans IDE. On the contrary, plugins with Eclipse have been always another source of trouble - and I keep on hearing people complaining about broken Eclipse plugin every time, at work and at the JUG, even by people who still prefer the Eclipse IDE to the NetBeans IDE. Thus, for me there are no doubts that the NetBeans RCP wins on Eclipse RCP.

Do not create a situation where more than one user is working on the same file on the same time (What will happened to this file on merge and which file will be chosen ?)

I think that the above statement should be clarified. Actually, Mercurial and other similar distributed source repositories have been designed exactly for allowing people to concurrently work on the same stuff (in contrast with old facilities where it was mandatory to lock a file while working on it, then unlock when the job was done) and eventually postponing the merge time as long as one wishes. Clearly, the longer you postpone the merge, the harder the merge will be, but this is a trade off one must handle.

While the lock approach is clearly safer, it's also a bottleneck and Mercurial has been designed for scale up with a very high number of committers.

So, people could work on the same file and their work should be merged at some time. Of course you're right that this scenario is a potential problem and must be dealt with care, but if I one wanted to absolutely avoid it, perhaps Mercurial is not the best tool for him (even though it offers other features that one might like).

Do not create a situation where more than one user is working on the same file on the same time (What will happened to this file on merge and which file will be chosen ?)

I think that the above statement should be clarified. Actually, Mercurial and other similar distributed source repositories have been designed exactly for allowing people to concurrently work on the same stuff (in contrast with old facilities where it was mandatory to lock a file while working on it, then unlock when the job was done) and eventually postponing the merge time as long as one wishes. Clearly, the longer you postpone the merge, the harder the merge will be, but this is a trade off one must handle.

While the lock approach is clearly safer, it's also a bottleneck and Mercurial has been designed for scale up with a very high number of committers.

So, people could work on the same file and their work should be merged at some time. Of course you're right that this scenario is a potential problem and must be dealt with care, but if I one wanted to absolutely avoid it, perhaps Mercurial is not the best tool for him (even though it offers other features that one might like).

Hmm.... While it's a smart thing, I don't see Apple worrying about it. While Inventor faces the problem that iStuff users are less and less computer-acculturated by making development simpler, I don't see tons of people interested in developing an app, even when the task is simpler; 99.9% (I don't know how many decimal digits follow) of people want to use apps, not write them (just consider how tiny is the fraction of people who spend a few seconds to give you a star or a comment on the stores, figure it out how few would be attracted by the idea of working on it).

Thus, I see Inventor as a way to have more developers, have people talking about Android in schools and colleges, all good stuff, but not more people buying Android because of it. To sell more Android, manufacturers should rather focus on a) cooler graphic design of devices (just yesterday we was discussing at my local JUG that only the Nexus One come reasonably close to the coolness of iPhone design, while other appliances such as the Motorola Droid, that are technically excellent, are extremely poor in this respect) and b) more advertisement about the Android brand (outside the USA).

Hmm.... While it's a smart thing, I don't see Apple worrying about it. While Inventor faces the problem that iStuff users are less and less computer-acculturated by making development simpler, I don't see tons of people interested in developing an app, even when the task is simpler; 99.9% (I don't know how many decimal digits follow) of people want to use apps, not write them (just consider how tiny is the fraction of people who spend a few seconds to give you a star or a comment on the stores, figure it out how few would be attracted by the idea of working on it).

Thus, I see Inventor as a way to have more developers, have people talking about Android in schools and colleges, all good stuff, but not more people buying Android because of it. To sell more Android, manufacturers should rather focus on a) cooler graphic design of devices (just yesterday we was discussing at my local JUG that only the Nexus One come reasonably close to the coolness of iPhone design, while other appliances such as the Motorola Droid, that are technically excellent, are extremely poor in this respect) and b) more advertisement about the Android brand (outside the USA).

It depends. Clearly, on the cited project I'm doing that. It got stable enough to minimize the burden of merge, while other projects I'm working on are still in "violent" change mode (due to refactorings) either because they are very young, or because they're still going through a general reorganization (e.g. conversion from Ant to Maven). In this case, I fear that the very fact of having a merge that could last more than one-two days create problems because in the meantime many things have changed in the default branch.

Theoretically, when everything gets reasonably stable, I should go to the named branch mode for most of them.

It depends. Clearly, on the cited project I'm doing that. It got stable enough to minimize the burden of merge, while other projects I'm working on are still in "violent" change mode (due to refactorings) either because they are very young, or because they're still going through a general reorganization (e.g. conversion from Ant to Maven). In this case, I fear that the very fact of having a merge that could last more than one-two days create problems because in the meantime many things have changed in the default branch.

Theoretically, when everything gets reasonably stable, I should go to the named branch mode for most of them.

Actually I don't see any "pollution" problem with named branches, since you can "close" them. Closing is just a flag, of course, but this means that they don't appear on a list. I don't see any problem of having them archived somewhere, just to eventually be able to recall what happened.

For instance, these are active named branches of a project of mine (mostly named on the JIRA issue they relates):

[Mistral:Projects/jrawio/src] fritz% hg branches
default 956:c735e06060c0
2.0 952:b5299fe1c439
3.0 950:91c52089e89e
1.6 756:616fce1a805d
fix-JRW-264 754:fe4c22e3275e
fix-JRW-261 717:176d50455e79
fix-JRW-257 709:35434439c597
fix-jrw-246-1 640:cbf229d7afce
fix-JRW-120 562:a82b7ed21b94
fix-JRW-6 560:eb9031bec74c
fix-JRW-162-and-JRW-194 367:e75735d2055c

The above is just a filtered list of named branches. The totality of them can be seen here:

[Mistral:Projects/jrawio/src] fritz% hg branches --close
default 956:c735e06060c0
2.0 952:b5299fe1c439
3.0 950:91c52089e89e
1.6 756:616fce1a805d
fix-JRW-264 754:fe4c22e3275e
fix-JRW-261 717:176d50455e79
fix-JRW-257 709:35434439c597
fix-jrw-246-1 640:cbf229d7afce
fix-JRW-120 562:a82b7ed21b94
fix-JRW-6 560:eb9031bec74c
fix-JRW-162-and-JRW-194 367:e75735d2055c
fix-JRW-276 909:ce254969283b (closed)
fix-JRW-275 892:f80b6551b76d (closed)
fix-JRW-236-1 683:9e216f85561e (closed)
fix-JRW-240-1 668:ff403f3cc946 (closed)
fix-JRW-230-1 660:e93885f2ae9b (closed)
fix-JRW-203-1 632:4ce962bd50dc (closed)
nef-fixes-1 586:ab13ced986d3 (closed)
fix-JRW-187-1 408:1a0cbede4cb8 (closed)
src 286:d9692def01a2 (closed)

Actually I don't see any "pollution" problem with named branches, since you can "close" them. Closing is just a flag, of course, but this means that they don't appear on a list. I don't see any problem of having them archived somewhere, just to eventually be able to recall what happened.

For instance, these are active named branches of a project of mine (mostly named on the JIRA issue they relates):

[Mistral:Projects/jrawio/src] fritz% hg branches
default 956:c735e06060c0
2.0 952:b5299fe1c439
3.0 950:91c52089e89e
1.6 756:616fce1a805d
fix-JRW-264 754:fe4c22e3275e
fix-JRW-261 717:176d50455e79
fix-JRW-257 709:35434439c597
fix-jrw-246-1 640:cbf229d7afce
fix-JRW-120 562:a82b7ed21b94
fix-JRW-6 560:eb9031bec74c
fix-JRW-162-and-JRW-194 367:e75735d2055c

The above is just a filtered list of named branches. The totality of them can be seen here:

[Mistral:Projects/jrawio/src] fritz% hg branches --close
default 956:c735e06060c0
2.0 952:b5299fe1c439
3.0 950:91c52089e89e
1.6 756:616fce1a805d
fix-JRW-264 754:fe4c22e3275e
fix-JRW-261 717:176d50455e79
fix-JRW-257 709:35434439c597
fix-jrw-246-1 640:cbf229d7afce
fix-JRW-120 562:a82b7ed21b94
fix-JRW-6 560:eb9031bec74c
fix-JRW-162-and-JRW-194 367:e75735d2055c
fix-JRW-276 909:ce254969283b (closed)
fix-JRW-275 892:f80b6551b76d (closed)
fix-JRW-236-1 683:9e216f85561e (closed)
fix-JRW-240-1 668:ff403f3cc946 (closed)
fix-JRW-230-1 660:e93885f2ae9b (closed)
fix-JRW-203-1 632:4ce962bd50dc (closed)
nef-fixes-1 586:ab13ced986d3 (closed)
fix-JRW-187-1 408:1a0cbede4cb8 (closed)
src 286:d9692def01a2 (closed)

I'm trying to figure it out. I think that at least there are two kind of users, those who are not turned down by frequent updates and those who are, so perhaps it's better to address both classes.

This is also related to the way they find your app and eventually get in touch (or not) with you. I'm going to give more details about what I'm discovering in an upcoming post.

Most of the good things have been already said. But I can add one: think incrementally. Thanks to heavens, the NetBeans Platform is Swing based as your existing application. This means that you shouldn't learn all of the tremendous bag of Good Things that the platform has, but you can start from a few things, integrate them into your application, and then incrementally replace your code with the proper NetBeans APIs. At the same time, slowly but steadily refactor your stuff splitting it into properly designed modules. If you are new to module design, the Platform will teach you a lot of things.

Most of the good things have been already said. But I can add one: think incrementally. Thanks to heavens, the NetBeans Platform is Swing based as your existing application. This means that you shouldn't learn all of the tremendous bag of Good Things that the platform has, but you can start from a few things, integrate them into your application, and then incrementally replace your code with the proper NetBeans APIs. At the same time, slowly but steadily refactor your stuff splitting it into properly designed modules. If you are new to module design, the Platform will teach you a lot of things.

If they lived in my country, they'd write integration tests in assembler rather than doing their taxes.

If they lived in my country, they'd write integration tests in assembler rather than doing their taxes.

No problem with the heresy... :-) I myself don't go 100% TDD (sort of 70%, probably). I agree that the important thing is to have tests, even though they didn't come from TDD. It's a matter of grain of salts. I'd like to stress, in any case, that especially when you want to trade off some quality for speed, that is, speed is important for the reasons quoted by Avi, the risk is that tests-done-later fall under the reap of lack of time or money. In this way, the risk is that you go fast to the market, you get some ROI from the first deployments, and then the project dies young because it gets soon out of control. TDD has got the advantage that, being written first, tests won't suffer too much from the budget cuts.

In any case, we're all saying a very savvy thing: "pure" approaches exist mainly only at conferences; in the real world there are many forces driving you and you must find the proper mix.

No problem with the heresy... :-) I myself don't go 100% TDD (sort of 70%, probably). I agree that the important thing is to have tests, even though they didn't come from TDD. It's a matter of grain of salts. I'd like to stress, in any case, that especially when you want to trade off some quality for speed, that is, speed is important for the reasons quoted by Avi, the risk is that tests-done-later fall under the reap of lack of time or money. In this way, the risk is that you go fast to the market, you get some ROI from the first deployments, and then the project dies young because it gets soon out of control. TDD has got the advantage that, being written first, tests won't suffer too much from the budget cuts.

In any case, we're all saying a very savvy thing: "pure" approaches exist mainly only at conferences; in the real world there are many forces driving you and you must find the proper mix.

I agree, but with some remarks. The point is that "good code" isn't a meaningful thing if you don't put it in context. I mean, in the context of Uncle Bob it means code of excellent quality, in the context of normal people striving to improve while delivering and dealing with all the everyday's mess it means another thing. The "optimal" code isn't necessarily the fastest thing to do initially, since often they're learning how to write better code while working on a project.

My point is: strive to write first the better code that you can afford, but above all go TDD. If you have tests and initially suboptimal code, at least you're fulfilling your targets. Having tests, you can afford to refactor code continuously and you can improve it later.

I agree, but with some remarks. The point is that "good code" isn't a meaningful thing if you don't put it in context. I mean, in the context of Uncle Bob it means code of excellent quality, in the context of normal people striving to improve while delivering and dealing with all the everyday's mess it means another thing. The "optimal" code isn't necessarily the fastest thing to do initially, since often they're learning how to write better code while working on a project.

My point is: strive to write first the better code that you can afford, but above all go TDD. If you have tests and initially suboptimal code, at least you're fulfilling your targets. Having tests, you can afford to refactor code continuously and you can improve it later.

Thanks for the feedback, which is very appreciated. Yes, indeed I'm figuring out how to create specific blueBill Mobile plugins (they could be probably seen next week or the week after the next one) and have a tested ecosystem, as you said.

The idea of real time, geo-based queries is part of the original concept of blueBill Mobile. Indeed, the JavaFX version has got it (prototypical) as it can connect to a server where other birders can share observations in real time and eventually even share their current position (sort of Google Friends for birders). If you search for bluebill Mobile JavaFX at my blog there should be a screencast showing a simulation of the feature. It dates back from one year ago, then the stall of JavaFX prevented me from "hitting the shelves". I'll also start talking with people who are already managing database services about observations - there are a number both in Europe and USA. By this August there will be a lot of more beef in blueBill Mobile.

And please let us know when your mushroom application is available. :-)

Thanks for the feedback, which is very appreciated. Yes, indeed I'm figuring out how to create specific blueBill Mobile plugins (they could be probably seen next week or the week after the next one) and have a tested ecosystem, as you said.

The idea of real time, geo-based queries is part of the original concept of blueBill Mobile. Indeed, the JavaFX version has got it (prototypical) as it can connect to a server where other birders can share observations in real time and eventually even share their current position (sort of Google Friends for birders). If you search for bluebill Mobile JavaFX at my blog there should be a screencast showing a simulation of the feature. It dates back from one year ago, then the stall of JavaFX prevented me from "hitting the shelves". I'll also start talking with people who are already managing database services about observations - there are a number both in Europe and USA. By this August there will be a lot of more beef in blueBill Mobile.

And please let us know when your mushroom application is available. :-)

BTW, guys, do you know whether it's possible, by configuration or command line, to avoid that Maven prepends the project name in the SCM tag? I get stuff such as foo-1.2.3, while I'd like to have 1.2.3 alone.

Thanks.

BTW, guys, do you know whether it's possible, by configuration or command line, to avoid that Maven prepends the project name in the SCM tag? I get stuff such as foo-1.2.3, while I'd like to have 1.2.3 alone.

Thanks.

Being just graduate and supposedly young, perhaps he's got still chances to change his job... ;-)

Seriously, I second the above and especially Martjin's advice about joining an open source project.

Being just graduate and supposedly young, perhaps he's got still chances to change his job... ;-)

Seriously, I second the above and especially Martjin's advice about joining an open source project.

I've got some extra code that works with Intents, but it's experimental (and probably unneeded for my current requirements). The pattern was born having in mind to solve the problem of direct coupling, but clearly the smart things it does is decoupling navigation decisions - which could end up in Intents as well.

I'm thinking of a similar things that you described, i.e. the capability of extending blueBill with "plugins" that would be delivered as extra application; for instance, a bunch of media providers, that would provide multiple documents available in the internet (or on the local storage) about a certain bird species. This would work with Intents, of course - both letting the user to pick the desired one, or even calling sequentially all the found things and aggregating the results. I've got a tough week, but I'll probably work on that the next weekend.

I've got some extra code that works with Intents, but it's experimental (and probably unneeded for my current requirements). The pattern was born having in mind to solve the problem of direct coupling, but clearly the smart things it does is decoupling navigation decisions - which could end up in Intents as well.

I'm thinking of a similar things that you described, i.e. the capability of extending blueBill with "plugins" that would be delivered as extra application; for instance, a bunch of media providers, that would provide multiple documents available in the internet (or on the local storage) about a certain bird species. This would work with Intents, of course - both letting the user to pick the desired one, or even calling sequentially all the found things and aggregating the results. I've got a tough week, but I'll probably work on that the next weekend.

"Also, to me key people leaving is always a singnal that something is wrong with the organization, for a reason that people don't quit the jobs they love."

Not necessarily. Talented people often like to change - especially creative people probably enjoy more to create new things rather than driving them at cruise speed. Usually when people leave because they don't like something you get it (think of Gosling, for instance).

@Alex, of course I agree, things that aren't exposed APIs or high-level stuff aren't worth while wasting too much time.

Good point, the need for personalized names of places is another reason for having one's own location manager. Yes, these are not errors, but missing features, and the fact that we're having Java 5 makes it easier to use existing stuff, even though I think that for the custom location database using sqlite is really needed.

Good point, the need for personalized names of places is another reason for having one's own location manager. Yes, these are not errors, but missing features, and the fact that we're having Java 5 makes it easier to use existing stuff, even though I think that for the custom location database using sqlite is really needed.

If it's verbose, it should suffice to drop the redundant parts :-) So:

"How do I pass data between Activities/Services within a single application?" There's no specific infrastructure in Android (for this purpose).

Then the rest of the article explains how you can do on your own.

Now, if you are asking what an Activity/Service is, you won't find an answer here, because I'm not writing Android tutorials for beginners - I think that there are a lot already available.

If it's verbose, it should suffice to drop the redundant parts :-) So:

"How do I pass data between Activities/Services within a single application?" There's no specific infrastructure in Android (for this purpose).

Then the rest of the article explains how you can do on your own.

Now, if you are asking what an Activity/Service is, you won't find an answer here, because I'm not writing Android tutorials for beginners - I think that there are a lot already available.

@Rob, unfortunately I think that the XMLVM stuff is precisely what Apple forbids with the 4.0.

Generically speaking, it's nice to see a dual boot in a phone 8-) but I think it's only a geeky thing. I mean, less than 0.01% of common customer would do that - also invalidating their warranty - and can't move the market. Android has got to beat iPhone on its own. :-)

I must say that, even with some criticism (see my previous post and others to come soon) I feel ok with Android. In about a week of work in free time (ok, with a full weekend in the middle) I've been able to roll out a version of blueBill Mobile which delivers (I mean, it provides a meaningful value to users). THis is my first week with Android and I'm also experimenting different design strategies, so it's really productive.

@Rob, unfortunately I think that the XMLVM stuff is precisely what Apple forbids with the 4.0.

Generically speaking, it's nice to see a dual boot in a phone 8-) but I think it's only a geeky thing. I mean, less than 0.01% of common customer would do that - also invalidating their warranty - and can't move the market. Android has got to beat iPhone on its own. :-)

I must say that, even with some criticism (see my previous post and others to come soon) I feel ok with Android. In about a week of work in free time (ok, with a full weekend in the middle) I've been able to roll out a version of blueBill Mobile which delivers (I mean, it provides a meaningful value to users). THis is my first week with Android and I'm also experimenting different design strategies, so it's really productive.

I think that the enum things could have been solved anyway. Google could define two overloaded versions of findViewById(), one accepting an enum and one accepting an int. Then, enums used as API constants could have a special annotation to mark them for a special treatment I'm going to describe and have a property getter such as getCode() that returns the current int constant. In the end, since Android translates bytecode into Dalvik, a bytecode manipulator could replace all the findViewById(enum) into the corresponding findViewById(int) inlining the getCode() extraction. In this way, ranting people like me would be happy, and the generated Dalvik code would be just the same as today, with zero impact at runtime (at least for the two points mentioned by Artur) and a very slight overhead during compilation. BTW, one could even not use enum in this case (after all, the real usage is getting the getCode() value, and we don't need ordinal(), or the static values() etc), just a specific generified Key object wrapping an integer code and avoiding the cast - the special annotation would just instruct the code manipulator to do the trick. Do you see any problem with this approach?

For what concerns the aspect-via-annotations etc, I'm keeping very generic, but I still think that some solution that can be entirely applied during compilation (i.e. with an annotation processor) could work. This could be done by anybody of us, since it doesn't require changes to the Android runtime. I could work on this after I have matured more experience with the APIs and figured out how I'd like to see the code.

As per the ranting API, yes, I'm keeping the right of ranting back as I'm a happy Swing user :-) Of course I reckon that the Swing APIs are in large parts obsolete as per 2010 standards, but I'm just applying the same bashing standard to Android.

Glad to know about the Eclipse UFaceKit and going to have a look at it - in particular, if they provide JavaBean-compatible wrappers, BetterBeansBinding should work too.

Of course, it's clearly stated (even in the title, thanks to our magnific editors here at DZone) that this is a newbye perspective, with all the limits in it. I could change my mind with time on some parts, and I'll let you know.

I think that the enum things could have been solved anyway. Google could define two overloaded versions of findViewById(), one accepting an enum and one accepting an int. Then, enums used as API constants could have a special annotation to mark them for a special treatment I'm going to describe and have a property getter such as getCode() that returns the current int constant. In the end, since Android translates bytecode into Dalvik, a bytecode manipulator could replace all the findViewById(enum) into the corresponding findViewById(int) inlining the getCode() extraction. In this way, ranting people like me would be happy, and the generated Dalvik code would be just the same as today, with zero impact at runtime (at least for the two points mentioned by Artur) and a very slight overhead during compilation. BTW, one could even not use enum in this case (after all, the real usage is getting the getCode() value, and we don't need ordinal(), or the static values() etc), just a specific generified Key object wrapping an integer code and avoiding the cast - the special annotation would just instruct the code manipulator to do the trick. Do you see any problem with this approach?

For what concerns the aspect-via-annotations etc, I'm keeping very generic, but I still think that some solution that can be entirely applied during compilation (i.e. with an annotation processor) could work. This could be done by anybody of us, since it doesn't require changes to the Android runtime. I could work on this after I have matured more experience with the APIs and figured out how I'd like to see the code.

As per the ranting API, yes, I'm keeping the right of ranting back as I'm a happy Swing user :-) Of course I reckon that the Swing APIs are in large parts obsolete as per 2010 standards, but I'm just applying the same bashing standard to Android.

Glad to know about the Eclipse UFaceKit and going to have a look at it - in particular, if they provide JavaBean-compatible wrappers, BetterBeansBinding should work too.

Of course, it's clearly stated (even in the title, thanks to our magnific editors here at DZone) that this is a newbye perspective, with all the limits in it. I could change my mind with time on some parts, and I'll let you know.

One of the coolest things seen around. I second Varun's wishes, I'd like to see Mathieu and other authors blog on the project - it looks like a mine of ideas and resources (*).

A first curiosity just after a random look at sources. I see .pot files, that should be related to localization. Can you give us some hints? Localization with multiple languages and keeping everything in sync with a project that is still evolving is one of the things that I've never able to manage.

(*) Too bad that it's _all_ GPL... I understand that GPL is important in such cases for preserving the ownership of the project and contributing to a marketing ecosystem modeled on the author's wishes... but what about releasing at least some non-strategic utility components under LGPL, so they can be easily reused?

For instance, I understand that there are some implementations of state-of-the-art algorithms, such as layout, clustering, etc... People like me who's not involved in data visualization would welcome some simple thing e.g. to smart layout of things on the Visual Library(= arranging widgets so that they don't overlap etc...).

While I'm still puzzled about the use of Code Bubbles in the real world (for screen estate issues), it's really an inspiring and cool project. Reading the interview, I've been surprised by learning that the UI is not based on SWT - which I presumed, knowing that the project it's based on Eclipse. Being the newer UI based on Swing, that clearly means that in the author's mind Swing is a better solution than SWT for complex and intensive graphic stuff; right? At this point, I wonder why Code Bubble hasn't been directly written on NetBeans, thus avoiding the whole XML-RPC infrastructure.

I must say I'm an expert of the NetBeans Platform, but know very little about how NetBeans (and Eclipse) IDEs model a project structure, and I understand that Andrew particularly appreciates Mylyn. I'd just point out that it should be possible to run Mylyn from inside the NetBeans Platform, thus I wonder whether my suggestion of basing Code Bubble on the NetBeans Platform makes really sense.

I was shocked in a tornado of thoughts when I read the bad news. The first, obvious point is that you don't expect that a young man in health passes away - and especially one that you know. Accidents, killings, quakes and other bad things seem mostly to involve people that you don't know. Indeed in the past I lost dear ones in their youth, but you always think that those dramas are an exception, and won't repeat again in future.

When I got able again to sort things out, I focused on a specific episode with respect to Felipe. The past year, Felipe was so generous to host some Hudson jobs of mine on his host - it was a very important help for me, since in a few weeks I found myself unable to properly run CI on my old server and it took months for me to find a better solution.

In change for his favour, when I went to Zurich for the OSGi DevCon I brought Felipe a couple of bottles of italian wine - in turn he invited me to a dinner at his home. I wasn't able to pay the visit, because that day I felt sick, in the way that embarasses you when you go to somebody's else home.

Indeed, I pay a lot of attention to the old-style human relationships, especially in a world where many things have gone "virtual" - something that I don't like at all - technology is cold and void without the human touch (and dumb too - hell, how I do hate that blogs and forum posts are now attaching my smiling photo in such sad circumstances).

But I wasn't too angry for that missed opportunity, since I've met Felipe in many conferences and that would happen again in future; and planned to be back in Zurich sooner or later, perhaps for Jazoon 2010, in a few months.

I couldn't really imagine that it would have been too late. Now I regret that missed dinner so much. This recalls us that we aren't fully in control of our life.

I was shocked in a tornado of thoughts when I read the bad news. The first, obvious point is that you don't expect that a young man in health passes away - and especially one that you know. Accidents, killings, quakes and other bad things seem mostly to involve people that you don't know. Indeed in the past I lost dear ones in their youth, but you always think that those dramas are an exception, and won't repeat again in future.

When I got able again to sort things out, I focused on a specific episode with respect to Felipe. The past year, Felipe was so generous to host some Hudson jobs of mine on his host - it was a very important help for me, since in a few weeks I found myself unable to properly run CI on my old server and it took months for me to find a better solution.

In change for his favour, when I went to Zurich for the OSGi DevCon I brought Felipe a couple of bottles of italian wine - in turn he invited me to a dinner at his home. I wasn't able to pay the visit, because that day I felt sick, in the way that embarasses you when you go to somebody's else home.

Indeed, I pay a lot of attention to the old-style human relationships, especially in a world where many things have gone "virtual" - something that I don't like at all - technology is cold and void without the human touch (and dumb too - hell, how I do hate that blogs and forum posts are now attaching my smiling photo in such sad circumstances).

But I wasn't too angry for that missed opportunity, since I've met Felipe in many conferences and that would happen again in future; and planned to be back in Zurich sooner or later, perhaps for Jazoon 2010, in a few months.

I couldn't really imagine that it would have been too late. Now I regret that missed dinner so much. This recalls us that we aren't fully in control of our life.

I think that this post is good when properly contextualized. As OSGi and, generically speaking, component frameworks are spreading more and more, and getting known by more and more people, the risk is that they are perceived as a "silver bullet". It happened a lot of time in the past, and it will happen in future for other technologies. I understand Adam's post as the warning that OSGi is just a facilitator, but it must be introduced in a project where the best practices work. As it's powerful, OSGi is also more dangerous if not well understood.

Of course people with OSGi experience know these facts pretty well. But they aren't the intended target of this post, AFAIU.

I think that this post is good when properly contextualized. As OSGi and, generically speaking, component frameworks are spreading more and more, and getting known by more and more people, the risk is that they are perceived as a "silver bullet". It happened a lot of time in the past, and it will happen in future for other technologies. I understand Adam's post as the warning that OSGi is just a facilitator, but it must be introduced in a project where the best practices work. As it's powerful, OSGi is also more dangerous if not well understood.

Of course people with OSGi experience know these facts pretty well. But they aren't the intended target of this post, AFAIU.

@Vladimir: very good point.

Let's add the mobile stuff. Some pointed out that at the recent Barcelona fair there were no JavaFX announcements (with the exception of feature phones, which aren't the main aspect of the market). I somewhat expected since I believe that it's 99% a business thing and Oracle completed the acquisition too recently. But the future of JavaFX Mobile is bound IMO to the fact that within the summer Oracle announces that it runs on Android, Symbian and RIM. If I'm not wrong this would cover more or less 50% of the smartphone market. The choice of deploying first to Windows Mobile has been the most unfortunate decision in the JavaFX area. It has been told multiple times that they have already the prototypes working, so it's just a matter of business deals. Also, Oracle need to complete the JavaFX Player that runs on top of plain JME - this would give compatibility (even though through an additional installation step) to the current huge spread of JME

"Linux based mobile platforms include Android and Palm WebOS, as well as SymbianOS, BlackBerry and Windows Mobile"

I'd say that there's a readability problem in that sentence (SymbianOS and Windows Mobile, and probably BlacBerry AFAIK aren't Linux based).

"Linux based mobile platforms include Android and Palm WebOS, as well as SymbianOS, BlackBerry and Windows Mobile"

I'd say that there's a readability problem in that sentence (SymbianOS and Windows Mobile, and probably BlacBerry AFAIK aren't Linux based).

So now, as a regular practice, he always put aside a nice block of memory to free up when it's really needed.

I think I've possibly tried something similar during the very first times of developing with J2ME, for evident reasons. Indeed, this is sort of a pattern for many kind of problems, such as "let's put a few money in that account that we don't use, so we live as they didn't exist, and use only in case". I see a big problem: unless you completely forget that money (in which case, you're loosing them), you - perhaps unwillingly - still count on that money, in some way.

Unless you're the only one knowing that emergency resource and keep the team unaware of it; but it seems unapplicable in most of today's agile processes, where honesty and sharing are some of the key values.

So now, as a regular practice, he always put aside a nice block of memory to free up when it's really needed.

I think I've possibly tried something similar during the very first times of developing with J2ME, for evident reasons. Indeed, this is sort of a pattern for many kind of problems, such as "let's put a few money in that account that we don't use, so we live as they didn't exist, and use only in case". I see a big problem: unless you completely forget that money (in which case, you're loosing them), you - perhaps unwillingly - still count on that money, in some way.

Unless you're the only one knowing that emergency resource and keep the team unaware of it; but it seems unapplicable in most of today's agile processes, where honesty and sharing are some of the key values.

Great feedback, Osvaldo. As a member of the NetBeans community I can't only say that I hope that dynlangs supporters that are now "pissed off" by Oracle will focus their reaction in a constructive way and contribute in keeping alive, and improving, the NetBeans support for their tools. I'd like that Oracle really confirm with facts their desire for making NetBeans the best IDE for Java{SE,ME,EE,FX} and the community make NetBeans the best IDE for Scala, Ruby, Groovy, PHP, what else. ** edited to add ** - and eventually demonstrating that they can reach out of their niche and be the Next Big Thing. **

I've always said that I believe that the communities are in many cases able to keep on with some technologies and should really be challenged to do now. It's a thing that would make stronger the whole FLOSS culture.

I agree that "extra" languages are mainly in charge of the community. But the community is also able to keep niches alive (which is a Good Thing), not necessarily to have them substantially grow. All those languages are now, more or less, niches. For any of them to become the Next Big Thing, I'm not saying that it's strictly necessary a big endorsement from Oracle, but it is likely that it will be needed.

Now, googling for Oracle + {Python, Ruby, Groovy} you can find a lot of stuff in their Wiki, but if I look at a strategic perspective, JDeveloper doesn't have much support for them - surely there's not the enthusiastic support exhibited by NetBeans and Eclipse. Now, for NetBeans Oracle has said that it won't invest in dynamic language support (many commenters are reporting the opposite, but if you listen to the original webcast you'll discover they got it wrong). My question was: is this a sign that Oracle is not seeing big money on that area?

Well, but - and I'm saying this as owner of a dozen of projects at Kenai - and moving to Rational Jazz rather than GoogleCode is more or less the same annoyance. In the end, I'm loosing a few days of work (distributed in two months, even though I think I'll do that in a shorter time). If a FLOSS software I'm relying on would disappear in a day (BTW, a thing that is not possible) I'd have to redesign parts of my software.

In a broader perspective, I agree that Oracle's strategy could be to slowly kill things. Let's see, but let's also judge them by what they do, not by what we fear they could do.

Tim Boudreau pointed out that Swing components must be created in the EDT thread. Since we're talking of a Pluggable TopComponent, you'll discover that the Lookup.forPath() method is created from the EDT thread. But in order to make BeanFactory as much reusable as possible, I've patched it so line 34 has been replaced by the invocation of this method:

protected static Object instantiate (final Class<?> clazz)
 {
 if (EventQueue.isDispatchThread() || !Component.class.isAssignableFrom(clazz))
 {
 try
 {
 return clazz.newInstance();
 }
 catch (InstantiationException e)
 {
 return e;
 }
 catch (IllegalAccessException e)
 {
 return e;
 }
 }
 else
 {
 try
 {
 final Object[] result = new Object[1];

 EventQueue.invokeAndWait(new Runnable()
 {
 @Override
 public void run()
 {
 try
 {
 result[0] = clazz.newInstance();
 }
 catch (InstantiationException e)
 {
 result[0] = e;
 }
 catch (IllegalAccessException e)
 {
 result[0] = e;
 }
 }
 });

 return result[0];
 }
 catch (Exception e)
 {
 return e;
 }
 }
 }

If an instance of Exception is returned, it is thrown.

Tim Boudreau pointed out that Swing components must be created in the EDT thread. Since we're talking of a Pluggable TopComponent, you'll discover that the Lookup.forPath() method is created from the EDT thread. But in order to make BeanFactory as much reusable as possible, I've patched it so line 34 has been replaced by the invocation of this method:

protected static Object instantiate (final Class<?> clazz)
 {
 if (EventQueue.isDispatchThread() || !Component.class.isAssignableFrom(clazz))
 {
 try
 {
 return clazz.newInstance();
 }
 catch (InstantiationException e)
 {
 return e;
 }
 catch (IllegalAccessException e)
 {
 return e;
 }
 }
 else
 {
 try
 {
 final Object[] result = new Object[1];

 EventQueue.invokeAndWait(new Runnable()
 {
 @Override
 public void run()
 {
 try
 {
 result[0] = clazz.newInstance();
 }
 catch (InstantiationException e)
 {
 result[0] = e;
 }
 catch (IllegalAccessException e)
 {
 result[0] = e;
 }
 }
 });

 return result[0];
 }
 catch (Exception e)
 {
 return e;
 }
 }
 }

If an instance of Exception is returned, it is thrown.

SNAPSHOTS are *very* useful when you have people who want/need to use your "work in progress" code, and are willing the trade-off of having code that changes all the time, with no guarantees of quality, reliability, or even that it works at all.

SNAPSHOTS are *very* useful when you have people who want/need to use your "work in progress" code, and are willing the trade-off of having code that changes all the time, with no guarantees of quality, reliability, or even that it works at all.

"nor the technology platform (both are equal)"

Indeed, there's no such a thing as a JDeveloper Platform. And the NetBeans platform has a plentyful of customers. This means that it can survive on its own, but it would be a profitable market segment for Oracle.

"nor the technology platform (both are equal)"

Indeed, there's no such a thing as a JDeveloper Platform. And the NetBeans platform has a plentyful of customers. This means that it can survive on its own, but it would be a profitable market segment for Oracle.

I don't believe Oracle will focus primarily on Eclipse. It would be foolish: they are targetting IBM as their primary competitor, so I don't think it would be smart to select the competitor's primary developer tool. I believe they will support Eclipse as they do now, but not more. Jacek, if you don't see NetBeans developers, you aren't looking around a lot ;-) We are smaller than the Eclipse community, but relevant. Just talk with people at a conference and you'll find NetBeans users.

I don't believe Oracle will focus primarily on Eclipse. It would be foolish: they are targetting IBM as their primary competitor, so I don't think it would be smart to select the competitor's primary developer tool. I believe they will support Eclipse as they do now, but not more. Jacek, if you don't see NetBeans developers, you aren't looking around a lot ;-) We are smaller than the Eclipse community, but relevant. Just talk with people at a conference and you'll find NetBeans users.

I see this aquisition as highly anticompetitive if allowed to take place.

From a perspective, every acquisition is partially anticompetitive. In any case, the alternative was IBM (the "owner" of the Eclipse Foundation) or the failure - well, failure is anticompetitive by its very nature, as things mostly vanish in thin air. So, if the acquisition doesn't take place, it will be much worse.

For the rest, I think we're discussing on weak basis. Basically the document published today doesn't say anything or just a few things. I believe that Glassfish is here to stay, because JEE is open sourced and needs a Reference Implementation, thus justifying the existence of two separate products. For NetBeans, Oracle didn't say anything, as "is expected to provide..." doesn't make clear who will fund this "expectation". I believe that for NetBeans and other products there is still no decision.

I see this aquisition as highly anticompetitive if allowed to take place.

From a perspective, every acquisition is partially anticompetitive. In any case, the alternative was IBM (the "owner" of the Eclipse Foundation) or the failure - well, failure is anticompetitive by its very nature, as things mostly vanish in thin air. So, if the acquisition doesn't take place, it will be much worse.

For the rest, I think we're discussing on weak basis. Basically the document published today doesn't say anything or just a few things. I believe that Glassfish is here to stay, because JEE is open sourced and needs a Reference Implementation, thus justifying the existence of two separate products. For NetBeans, Oracle didn't say anything, as "is expected to provide..." doesn't make clear who will fund this "expectation". I believe that for NetBeans and other products there is still no decision.

I see this aquisition as highly anticompetitive if allowed to take place.

From a perspective, every acquisition is partially anticompetitive. In any case, the alternative was IBM (the "owner" of the Eclipse Foundation) or the failure - well, failure is anticompetitive by its very nature, as things mostly vanish in thin air. So, if the acquisition doesn't take place, it will be much worse.

For the rest, I think we're discussing on weak basis. Basically the document published today doesn't say anything or just a few things. I believe that Glassfish is here to stay, because JEE is open sourced and needs a Reference Implementation, thus justifying the existence of two separate products. For NetBeans, Oracle didn't say anything, as "is expected to provide..." doesn't make clear who will fund this "expectation". I believe that for NetBeans and other products there is still no decision.

I see this aquisition as highly anticompetitive if allowed to take place.

From a perspective, every acquisition is partially anticompetitive. In any case, the alternative was IBM (the "owner" of the Eclipse Foundation) or the failure - well, failure is anticompetitive by its very nature, as things mostly vanish in thin air. So, if the acquisition doesn't take place, it will be much worse.

For the rest, I think we're discussing on weak basis. Basically the document published today doesn't say anything or just a few things. I believe that Glassfish is here to stay, because JEE is open sourced and needs a Reference Implementation, thus justifying the existence of two separate products. For NetBeans, Oracle didn't say anything, as "is expected to provide..." doesn't make clear who will fund this "expectation". I believe that for NetBeans and other products there is still no decision.

I see this aquisition as highly anticompetitive if allowed to take place.

From a perspective, every acquisition is partially anticompetitive. In any case, the alternative was IBM (the "owner" of the Eclipse Foundation) or the failure - well, failure is anticompetitive by its very nature, as things mostly vanish in thin air. So, if the acquisition doesn't take place, it will be much worse.

For the rest, I think we're discussing on weak basis. Basically the document published today doesn't say anything or just a few things. I believe that Glassfish is here to stay, because JEE is open sourced and needs a Reference Implementation, thus justifying the existence of two separate products. For NetBeans, Oracle didn't say anything, as "is expected to provide..." doesn't make clear who will fund this "expectation". I believe that for NetBeans and other products there is still no decision.

I see this aquisition as highly anticompetitive if allowed to take place.

From a perspective, every acquisition is partially anticompetitive. In any case, the alternative was IBM (the "owner" of the Eclipse Foundation) or the failure - well, failure is anticompetitive by its very nature, as things mostly vanish in thin air. So, if the acquisition doesn't take place, it will be much worse.

For the rest, I think we're discussing on weak basis. Basically the document published today doesn't say anything or just a few things. I believe that Glassfish is here to stay, because JEE is open sourced and needs a Reference Implementation, thus justifying the existence of two separate products. For NetBeans, Oracle didn't say anything, as "is expected to provide..." doesn't make clear who will fund this "expectation". I believe that for NetBeans and other products there is still no decision.

1. nbm is sure too generic -I chose it as it is anyway temporary and didn't want to waste some fantasy on it ;-) I didn't use an identifier with nbpwr or kenai inside since even the project name and its forge are temporary. If we decided to do something at community level, the word netbeans would probably like to appear.
2. So a reasonable choice could be: use the officially declared public packages when available (OSGi or documentation), everything when no information is available.
3. Didn't get your point.
4. Actually I'm just performing releases on top of the older. This, anyway, prevents us from fixing a bug (e.g in the public packages declaration) in a version that is not the most recent (and not everybody likes to go always to the last version of a library). What I'm thinking is that we could probably write a specific application, that either plugs into the Maven APIs or just wraps it, by automatically generating POM files and running Maven on top of them. This would be useful also considering that the needed information is distributed on multiple files (pom.xml, module.xml, manifest.mf), while keeping everything in a single descriptor would facilitate maintainance.
5. Agreed. So it's just an issue of finding a clever naming scheme.

1. nbm is sure too generic -I chose it as it is anyway temporary and didn't want to waste some fantasy on it ;-) I didn't use an identifier with nbpwr or kenai inside since even the project name and its forge are temporary. If we decided to do something at community level, the word netbeans would probably like to appear.
2. So a reasonable choice could be: use the officially declared public packages when available (OSGi or documentation), everything when no information is available.
3. Didn't get your point.
4. Actually I'm just performing releases on top of the older. This, anyway, prevents us from fixing a bug (e.g in the public packages declaration) in a version that is not the most recent (and not everybody likes to go always to the last version of a library). What I'm thinking is that we could probably write a specific application, that either plugs into the Maven APIs or just wraps it, by automatically generating POM files and running Maven on top of them. This would be useful also considering that the needed information is distributed on multiple files (pom.xml, module.xml, manifest.mf), while keeping everything in a single descriptor would facilitate maintainance.
5. Agreed. So it's just an issue of finding a clever naming scheme.

Just to add some discussion points, these are the issues to be solved:

1. How to name the artifacts? So far, I'm using 'nbm' for the groupId and the artifactId is the same as the original library, but with dashes in places of dots.
2. What about package visibility? Should everythingbe visible, or only the officially public packages of the library?
3. How to define a versioning scheme? Keep in mind that we could put a bug in the wrapper (e.g. wrong dependencies, or wrong package names) and release a fix of the wrapper for the same version of the library. So far, I'm appending a further number to the original library version (e.g. foobar is 1.4.5, my wrapper is 1.4.5.x).
4. How to make available multiple versions of the same library? E.g. foobar 1.4.5, 1.4.6, ... 1.5 etc. AFAIU it's not possible with plain Maven, as you can't have two source artifacts with the same coordinates. Also, this would be something that could be automated with a Hudson e.g. polling a Maven repository for newest releases of the wrapped library.
5. Should the repository make different versions of the same library available? For instance, NB PoWeR at the moment contains a special version of JOGL by the OpenGL NetBeans Pack, that fixes some specific Platform issues with the Platform; I'm providing a patched version of JPA with some extensions (e.g. the capability of aggregating a persistence.xml from fragments found in different modules). Should we also publish the original, plain versions? Which naming scheme for artifacts in this case?

Just to add some discussion points, these are the issues to be solved:

1. How to name the artifacts? So far, I'm using 'nbm' for the groupId and the artifactId is the same as the original library, but with dashes in places of dots.
2. What about package visibility? Should everythingbe visible, or only the officially public packages of the library?
3. How to define a versioning scheme? Keep in mind that we could put a bug in the wrapper (e.g. wrong dependencies, or wrong package names) and release a fix of the wrapper for the same version of the library. So far, I'm appending a further number to the original library version (e.g. foobar is 1.4.5, my wrapper is 1.4.5.x).
4. How to make available multiple versions of the same library? E.g. foobar 1.4.5, 1.4.6, ... 1.5 etc. AFAIU it's not possible with plain Maven, as you can't have two source artifacts with the same coordinates. Also, this would be something that could be automated with a Hudson e.g. polling a Maven repository for newest releases of the wrapped library.
5. Should the repository make different versions of the same library available? For instance, NB PoWeR at the moment contains a special version of JOGL by the OpenGL NetBeans Pack, that fixes some specific Platform issues with the Platform; I'm providing a patched version of JPA with some extensions (e.g. the capability of aggregating a persistence.xml from fragments found in different modules). Should we also publish the original, plain versions? Which naming scheme for artifacts in this case?

I agree with Geertjan and others. It sounds as JDeveloper (and AFAIU IDEA) can be eventually defined as a "platform for development tools", but the high number of industrial applications cited by Geertjan, Toni and others demonstrate that people need a real, general purpose platform.

I think Oracle will do a smart thing if they invest in the NetBeans Platform making it a profitable asset, as there's evidence there's an existing market for it.

I agree with Geertjan and others. It sounds as JDeveloper (and AFAIU IDEA) can be eventually defined as a "platform for development tools", but the high number of industrial applications cited by Geertjan, Toni and others demonstrate that people need a real, general purpose platform.

I think Oracle will do a smart thing if they invest in the NetBeans Platform making it a profitable asset, as there's evidence there's an existing market for it.

The problem with JOGL and NetBeans is name-clashes on many combinations - for instance, Solaris and Linux share the same library name, as well as 32 and 64 bits versions in many platforms (not sure, but probably all). The best current solution that I've recently adopted is to use the NetBeans JOGL Pack - it includes all the existing native libraries and at runtime it copies the one for the current platform where NetBeans expects to find it.

The problem with JOGL and NetBeans is name-clashes on many combinations - for instance, Solaris and Linux share the same library name, as well as 32 and 64 bits versions in many platforms (not sure, but probably all). The best current solution that I've recently adopted is to use the NetBeans JOGL Pack - it includes all the existing native libraries and at runtime it copies the one for the current platform where NetBeans expects to find it.

I totally disagree. Frankly, I find the "must catch - rethrow", being repeated for years, argument totally invalid.

First, because checked exceptions are a tool, and you decide when to use a checked or an unchecked exception. If there's a misuse of checked exceptions in the Java runtime, it's a problem of the runtime, not of the language feature.

Second, often the catch-rethrow MUST BE DONE because an exception changes meaning. What I'm catching as an IOException at a certain level usually means another type of failure at the business level. So, catch-rethrow in this case is a feature that a good design should consider, not a thing that I'm compelled to do because of the language.

One of the most common things that I'm seeing in customer's code is something like: Applet - calls via SpringRemoting a - Remote Service - that calls Hibernate. Of course, there's no Hibernate.jar in the Applet, as it shouldn't be there. Now, it happens that an operation on the database fails, throw a HibernateException subclass (which is a RuntimeException, so nobody caught is), gets serialized to the Applet and - ta-dah - you get a wonderful ClassNotFoundError - and the customer can't understand what's happening. Letting exceptions filter to the upper level without any check is mostly an error, especially in multi-tier applications.

Third. You're all thinking of good applications with a good test coverage, where all my cases for checked exceptions could be replaced by a very good test coverage. Now, please do a reality check. We are in the minority that write good coverages, that is a minority of people writing decent tests. That's bad, but that's life. This is not going to change in any way, neither in the short, nor in the medium period (I don't do long period forecasts by principle). In this world, having the compiler to provide some more checks with static means is a very good thing.

I totally disagree. Frankly, I find the "must catch - rethrow", being repeated for years, argument totally invalid.

First, because checked exceptions are a tool, and you decide when to use a checked or an unchecked exception. If there's a misuse of checked exceptions in the Java runtime, it's a problem of the runtime, not of the language feature.

Second, often the catch-rethrow MUST BE DONE because an exception changes meaning. What I'm catching as an IOException at a certain level usually means another type of failure at the business level. So, catch-rethrow in this case is a feature that a good design should consider, not a thing that I'm compelled to do because of the language.

One of the most common things that I'm seeing in customer's code is something like: Applet - calls via SpringRemoting a - Remote Service - that calls Hibernate. Of course, there's no Hibernate.jar in the Applet, as it shouldn't be there. Now, it happens that an operation on the database fails, throw a HibernateException subclass (which is a RuntimeException, so nobody caught is), gets serialized to the Applet and - ta-dah - you get a wonderful ClassNotFoundError - and the customer can't understand what's happening. Letting exceptions filter to the upper level without any check is mostly an error, especially in multi-tier applications.

Third. You're all thinking of good applications with a good test coverage, where all my cases for checked exceptions could be replaced by a very good test coverage. Now, please do a reality check. We are in the minority that write good coverages, that is a minority of people writing decent tests. That's bad, but that's life. This is not going to change in any way, neither in the short, nor in the medium period (I don't do long period forecasts by principle). In this world, having the compiler to provide some more checks with static means is a very good thing.

An important integration, to save a headache. In order to have the nbm-maven-plugin to work, you need this in the pom:

<build>
 <plugins>
 <plugin>
 <groupId>org.apache.maven.plugins</groupId>
 <artifactId>maven-jar-plugin</artifactId>
 <configuration>
 <useDefaultManifestFile>true</useDefaultManifestFile> <!-- required since nbm-plugin 3.0-->
 </configuration>
 </plugin>
 </plugins>
</build>

You don't see this section in the above examples since in jrawio it has been configured in the master pom.

Another feature sorely missing is support for bitstream encoded data. There are plenty of file formats that rely on bit streams rather than byte streams. In fact, in these cases, the bit stream is often not well-aligned with the byte stream. So, a sequence of bits representing a certain attribute may very well cross the boundaries of a single byte. And Java does not have anything to help you with there.

Indeed, there is ImageInputStream that has got some bitwise operations - still, when I measured some performance a couple of years ago I found that, in some cases, rewriting the feature from scratch gave faster results.

Given that, being in the production of image codecs, Preon does interest me. A thing that I've not understood is whether the code necessarily requires a runtime support - I presume it does - and how large it is. Second question, how performance is?

PS I presume we can assume from this interview that the TomTom runtime is written in Java? :-)

Could be the Oracle buyout; if Apple was a decent provider, it would have communicated it. "We're removed ZFS waiting for the Oracle buyout of Sun to complete.". Less than 70 bytes, it doesn't seem too complex. That's part of the reason I consider Apple totally unreliable.

If we want to talk about stuff that is lightyears behind, what about HFS+?

Could be the Oracle buyout; if Apple was a decent provider, it would have communicated it. "We're removed ZFS waiting for the Oracle buyout of Sun to complete.". Less than 70 bytes, it doesn't seem too complex. That's part of the reason I consider Apple totally unreliable.

If we want to talk about stuff that is lightyears behind, what about HFS+?

Isn't this kind of an antipattern ... unit testing in general?

Right: in fact this example is a functional test.

Isn't this kind of an antipattern ... unit testing in general?

Right: in fact this example is a functional test.

Isn't this kind of an antipattern ... unit testing in general?

Right: in fact this example is a functional test.

Isn't this kind of an antipattern ... unit testing in general?

Right: in fact this example is a functional test.

Alexandro,

the Central Maven Repository doesn't accept snapshots - at the moment, many of my projects are still in the snapshot stage, so I can't publish them (yet). Then, not everybody wants to publish in the central maven repository - while I don't have objections for generic projecs such as BetterBeansBinding, there's a cluster of specific projects of mine for which I prefer to keep my own repo.

As a last point that I still have to study, the Central Repo forces the constraint of setting the group id as "com.kenai" that some people could dislike. Indeed, to me it doesn't make much sense, as if you want to change the source repository, you have to change it and break continuity.

Which is the problem with multiple repos, BTW?

Alexandro,

the Central Maven Repository doesn't accept snapshots - at the moment, many of my projects are still in the snapshot stage, so I can't publish them (yet). Then, not everybody wants to publish in the central maven repository - while I don't have objections for generic projecs such as BetterBeansBinding, there's a cluster of specific projects of mine for which I prefer to keep my own repo.

As a last point that I still have to study, the Central Repo forces the constraint of setting the group id as "com.kenai" that some people could dislike. Indeed, to me it doesn't make much sense, as if you want to change the source repository, you have to change it and break continuity.

Which is the problem with multiple repos, BTW?

I have to correct my previous comment, the point that I intented to quote is the whole stuff (I missed the second statement):

It is true that changing such things means a great change on the overall application. The point I am trying to make is that, if you accept that, you get data binding for quite a small price.

I have to correct my previous comment, the point that I intented to quote is the whole stuff (I missed the second statement):

It is true that changing such things means a great change on the overall application. The point I am trying to make is that, if you accept that, you get data binding for quite a small price.

Thanks Thomas for commenting here.

It is true that changing such things means a great change on the overall application.

Which is my point too. And as jamesjames pointed out, the core concept is not new, the new wrapper classes around variables (called Locations in JavaFX) are a "surrogate" for the lack of first-class properties in Java. Other frameworks, such as Wicket, have got similar approaches for their binding.

Thanks Thomas for commenting here.

It is true that changing such things means a great change on the overall application.

Which is my point too. And as jamesjames pointed out, the core concept is not new, the new wrapper classes around variables (called Locations in JavaFX) are a "surrogate" for the lack of first-class properties in Java. Other frameworks, such as Wicket, have got similar approaches for their binding.

TDD also provides the courage to refactor the code tomorrow

Exactly, and "courage" is the magic word. If you don't have tests for good code, you'll stuck yourself in the habit "don't touch it, since it works". As time goes on, there will be cases where the code works a bit less, some minor bugs, and some RFE happen. Since you don't want to touch that code, you'll put fixes/enhancements/workarounds in other parts of the code, slightly but constantly degrading the quality of your design. You won't even upgrade a depending library, since you can't easily run regression tests over it. In a shorter time than you expect, that good designed and implemented project will turn into a nightmare.

I think that it would make sense to *discuss* the creation of a JavaFX zone, but it would mostly for ... promoting JavaFX on its own.

For the rest, JavaFX is the only non-Java language that I'm using on the Java platform. I don't have any particular interest in Groovy, JRuby, Scala; nevertheless I regularly read articles about that stuff, generically because looking at things in different perspectivesis inspiring; because who knows, sooner or later I could change my mind (unlikely) or because I would have a better awareness in motivating my decision of sticking with Java (likely).

My point is that it's important that the title (or the first lines) describes the article content. In this case it does and if I'm not in the mood of reading about Groovy I don't find it hard to skip it.

I think that it would make sense to *discuss* the creation of a JavaFX zone, but it would mostly for ... promoting JavaFX on its own.

For the rest, JavaFX is the only non-Java language that I'm using on the Java platform. I don't have any particular interest in Groovy, JRuby, Scala; nevertheless I regularly read articles about that stuff, generically because looking at things in different perspectivesis inspiring; because who knows, sooner or later I could change my mind (unlikely) or because I would have a better awareness in motivating my decision of sticking with Java (likely).

My point is that it's important that the title (or the first lines) describes the article content. In this case it does and if I'm not in the mood of reading about Groovy I don't find it hard to skip it.

I've posted here a screencast of the application running with about 1.000 elements. The screencast is neither cut nor accelerated, you can see the real speed on a MacBook Pro.

For what concerns my original demo, the only problem I see on JavaFX 1.2 is some parts of the layout screwed up.

As long as JavaFX undermines the promise of "Write Once Run Anywhere",

Can you elaborate where the promise of WORA is violated (more than it already happens as per comment by Jess Holle? For instance, I've just written code that runs in the mobile emulator (and soon on a real phone, as soon as I grab it) and as an applet. With plain Java, this is possible only for smaller things, supposing you're using some JME library that emulates Swing.

Actually, I just notice JavaFX just doesn't support variable number of arguments in function, unless I missed it somewhere. Too bad.

You're right, it doesn't. You could construct sequences on the fly with very few syntax overhead (e.g. foobar([a,b,c])) but sequence are heavy from what I understand (unless there's some specific compiler optimization that kicks in if you don't use binding etc...). What I'm resorting to is the same trick as SLF4J that doesn't use varargs to keep compatibility with older Java version, that is overloading each method with 3/4 variants having 1..4 arguments.

As long as JavaFX undermines the promise of "Write Once Run Anywhere",

Can you elaborate where the promise of WORA is violated (more than it already happens as per comment by Jess Holle? For instance, I've just written code that runs in the mobile emulator (and soon on a real phone, as soon as I grab it) and as an applet. With plain Java, this is possible only for smaller things, supposing you're using some JME library that emulates Swing.

Actually, I just notice JavaFX just doesn't support variable number of arguments in function, unless I missed it somewhere. Too bad.

You're right, it doesn't. You could construct sequences on the fly with very few syntax overhead (e.g. foobar([a,b,c])) but sequence are heavy from what I understand (unless there's some specific compiler optimization that kicks in if you don't use binding etc...). What I'm resorting to is the same trick as SLF4J that doesn't use varargs to keep compatibility with older Java version, that is overloading each method with 3/4 variants having 1..4 arguments.

@Dar Var: I believe JavaFX support for 6.7 will come later in form of a plugin. There have been a few incompatible changes in the IDE, so the plugin for 6.5 won't work in 6.7.

@PatrykRy: code formatting has been temporarily disabled because of a bug. I must say I won't probably use it: with JavaFX I'm finding that I format things in different ways in function of the context. For instance, with a large number of attributes I do:

def xyz = Foo
 {
 attr1: "xyz"
 attr2: "xyz"
 attr3: "xyz"
 attribute4: "xyz"
 }

while where a single attribute is present:

def xyz = Bar { attr1: "xyz" }

I've seen such a high degree of formatting variations in my code that I don't think an automated formatter is able to handle. Maybe it's just because I've still to find a style for my JavaFX coding?

@Dar Var: I believe JavaFX support for 6.7 will come later in form of a plugin. There have been a few incompatible changes in the IDE, so the plugin for 6.5 won't work in 6.7.

@PatrykRy: code formatting has been temporarily disabled because of a bug. I must say I won't probably use it: with JavaFX I'm finding that I format things in different ways in function of the context. For instance, with a large number of attributes I do:

def xyz = Foo
 {
 attr1: "xyz"
 attr2: "xyz"
 attr3: "xyz"
 attribute4: "xyz"
 }

while where a single attribute is present:

def xyz = Bar { attr1: "xyz" }

I've seen such a high degree of formatting variations in my code that I don't think an automated formatter is able to handle. Maybe it's just because I've still to find a style for my JavaFX coding?

IMHO, Maven apart, we have a nasty compiler bug, that it's still here with 1.2 and seems to be specific of the Mobile profile. I've set up a test case: http://weblogs.java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici/archive/2009/06/javafx_12_still.html

IMHO, Maven apart, we have a nasty compiler bug, that it's still here with 1.2 and seems to be specific of the Mobile profile. I've set up a test case: http://weblogs.java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici/archive/2009/06/javafx_12_still.html

Krzysztof, no, I didn't see problems with that handful of names. BTW, I have another application where a similar trick is used and it works with about 1.000 items, with only some slightly noticeable delay in some cases. Of course, with such a big number of items you probably have to do some smarter filtering rather than using subsequences.

Excuse the frankness, but it's totally nonsense. :-)

First, when Java was released, there was no way. It was really interpreted at the time and the bad performance would have killed it. This closes the discussion about the "original sin": there was no feasible alternative.

The interesting discussion is about today. In the quoted blog, I don't see any "prove" that there would be the same performance: only the part about arrays has been talked of, but nothing about indexes as for arrays or math, or even number crunching. The most relevant comment above is by "martin" that reminds us that people use Java for a number of things, including 2D, 3D, I/O, I include math (people do image elaboration in Java too). Not to mention that Java ME runs on billions of mobile devices and performance would be still today a big problem for many of them.

This kind of recurring discussion seems to forget that Java success is due to the fact that it is a General Purpose language; in addition, many people fail to understand that "general purpose" means a wider range of things of what they do usually. For more specific domains (that, of course, can be relevant as well) there are other languages and Domain Specific Languages.

As a final point, I don't think why people needing pure objects everywhere just don't forget about "int" and use "Integer". With autoboxing the code is also clean. For instance, whenever I need nullable types (e.g. for the database) I use Integer. Where's the issue?

Excuse the frankness, but it's totally nonsense. :-)

First, when Java was released, there was no way. It was really interpreted at the time and the bad performance would have killed it. This closes the discussion about the "original sin": there was no feasible alternative.

The interesting discussion is about today. In the quoted blog, I don't see any "prove" that there would be the same performance: only the part about arrays has been talked of, but nothing about indexes as for arrays or math, or even number crunching. The most relevant comment above is by "martin" that reminds us that people use Java for a number of things, including 2D, 3D, I/O, I include math (people do image elaboration in Java too). Not to mention that Java ME runs on billions of mobile devices and performance would be still today a big problem for many of them.

This kind of recurring discussion seems to forget that Java success is due to the fact that it is a General Purpose language; in addition, many people fail to understand that "general purpose" means a wider range of things of what they do usually. For more specific domains (that, of course, can be relevant as well) there are other languages and Domain Specific Languages.

As a final point, I don't think why people needing pure objects everywhere just don't forget about "int" and use "Integer". With autoboxing the code is also clean. For instance, whenever I need nullable types (e.g. for the database) I use Integer. Where's the issue?

For curious people:

1. First, Anton Epple (NBDT) will talk about NetBeans and OSGi at OSGi DevCon: http://www.osgi.org/DevConEurope2009/Speakers#Epple

2. Second, I could be able to demonstrate something at Community One http://developers.sun.com/events/communityone/2009/west/agenda.jsp, "NetBeans Platform (*) + Wicket = Reusable Components and Modular Web Apps [ESP 302]". I've used the conditional because the talk is about using the NetBeans Platform on the server side (everything is already working) and I'm right now working to try to OSGify it - among the commenters of this thread, I'm certainly the less experienced with OSGi.

(*) I've just seen that the title is wrong! Not NetBeans IDE, but NetBeans Platform!

For curious people:

1. First, Anton Epple (NBDT) will talk about NetBeans and OSGi at OSGi DevCon: http://www.osgi.org/DevConEurope2009/Speakers#Epple

2. Second, I could be able to demonstrate something at Community One http://developers.sun.com/events/communityone/2009/west/agenda.jsp, "NetBeans Platform (*) + Wicket = Reusable Components and Modular Web Apps [ESP 302]". I've used the conditional because the talk is about using the NetBeans Platform on the server side (everything is already working) and I'm right now working to try to OSGify it - among the commenters of this thread, I'm certainly the less experienced with OSGi.

(*) I've just seen that the title is wrong! Not NetBeans IDE, but NetBeans Platform!

The fact that you do things in JavaFX "better" than Java is subjective, at this time, and related to a number of things. For me, I don't see compelling reasons for turning my Java desktop stuff into JavaFX _now_. If I had some compelling graphics requirements, at the point to throw a graphic designer into the team, JavaFX would make the difference. I expect the two different perspectives to get closer and closer in the next years.

Objectively, JavaFX is more coincise and binding is the key trick. Try to write the same example I'm talking of in Java. Of course, the same functional binding could be introduced in Java (thinking of it...) thus even Java programs could be much shorter. But with Java binding can't be as natural as is with JavaFX.

I wonder if the model classes could be written is regular Java, instead.

It's one of the things I'll try in future. For now, the only thing I've done is to run javap on a compiled JavaFX value object, and - as expected - I saw it's very different from a regular JavaBean. Basically every attribute its an independent object, I presume with its own get()/set() and binding support. But there are also lots of other stuff that I don't understand at a glance.

[Mistral:src/ContactList/dist] fritz% javap -classpath ContactList.jar it.tidalwave.javafxstuff.contactlist.model.Contact
Compiled from "Contact.fx"
public class it.tidalwave.javafxstuff.contactlist.model.Contact extends java.lang.Object implements it.tidalwave.javafxstuff.contactlist.model.Contact$Intf,com.sun.javafx.runtime.FXObject{
 public final com.sun.javafx.runtime.location.ObjectVariable $id;
 public final com.sun.javafx.runtime.location.ObjectVariable $firstName;
 public final com.sun.javafx.runtime.location.ObjectVariable $lastName;
 public final com.sun.javafx.runtime.location.ObjectVariable $phone;
 public final com.sun.javafx.runtime.location.ObjectVariable $email;
 public final com.sun.javafx.runtime.location.ObjectVariable $photo;
 public static java.lang.String toString$impl(it.tidalwave.javafxstuff.contactlist.model.Contact$Intf);
 public com.sun.javafx.runtime.location.ObjectVariable get$id();
 public com.sun.javafx.runtime.location.ObjectVariable get$firstName();
 public com.sun.javafx.runtime.location.ObjectVariable get$lastName();
 public com.sun.javafx.runtime.location.ObjectVariable get$phone();
 public com.sun.javafx.runtime.location.ObjectVariable get$email();
 public com.sun.javafx.runtime.location.ObjectVariable get$photo();
 public static void applyDefaults$id(it.tidalwave.javafxstuff.contactlist.model.Contact$Intf);
 public static void applyDefaults$firstName(it.tidalwave.javafxstuff.contactlist.model.Contact$Intf);
 public static void applyDefaults$lastName(it.tidalwave.javafxstuff.contactlist.model.Contact$Intf);
 public static void applyDefaults$phone(it.tidalwave.javafxstuff.contactlist.model.Contact$Intf);
 public static void applyDefaults$email(it.tidalwave.javafxstuff.contactlist.model.Contact$Intf);
 public static void applyDefaults$photo(it.tidalwave.javafxstuff.contactlist.model.Contact$Intf);
 public void initialize$();
 public static void addTriggers$(it.tidalwave.javafxstuff.contactlist.model.Contact$Intf);
 public java.lang.String toString();
 public it.tidalwave.javafxstuff.contactlist.model.Contact();
 public it.tidalwave.javafxstuff.contactlist.model.Contact(boolean);
 public static void userInit$(it.tidalwave.javafxstuff.contactlist.model.Contact$Intf);
 public static void postInit$(it.tidalwave.javafxstuff.contactlist.model.Contact$Intf);
 public static void main(java.lang.String[]) throws java.lang.Throwable;
 static {};
}

While the tooling is behind, the other RIAs simply can't compete with the fact that JavaFX is backed up by Java. Tons of libraries, frameworks, whatever, just available as native JavaFX objects, without the need of any adapter.

@user1024: you're right in saying that there is a segment that won't get much advantages in screamingly fine looking applications. I'm much into this business and I see myself using Swing for a long time. But I'm glad I can mix it with JavaFX for the end-user targeted applications, and mobile applications, where look matters. As a final word, the fact that JavaFX aims to compelling graphics doesn't mean you are forced to use compelling graphics; so the average programmer is not overloaded.

As this happened, most teams wanted to break away from activities that are traditionally close to development and to those that happen later in the application lifecycle.

Definitely agree. See e.g. the plugins for Hudson that provide support for generating a release in a controlled environment, just pushing a button. Maybe we should start calling it CLM (Continuous Lifecycle Management)?

Re NetBeans vs Eclipse, the NetBeans penetration is not "minimal", and I'd like to see a disaggregate statistic about people developing for the front end. In any case, I believe the Eclipse community is so vibrant that they will be able to provide a JavaFX plugin for Eclipse without asking for it to Sun ;-) In fact, see the Exadel link above.

For what concerns the future of JavaFX, I think at this time it's white or black. Either Oracle drops it, because it isn't interested in that segment, or it will soon fix the basic limitations because of fresh money and resources. In the second case, I bet it will soon fix the lack of a complete and official port for Linux.

They no doubt purchased stock when it was high and can't cope with the fact that the stockmarket has dropped out from under them, causing prices to collapse.
Sun may indeed be worth more in reality than the current stock price indicates, but as the purchase price of a company is measured in the price of its stock that's irrelevant. It just means that whomever buys stock now is getting a good deal and more power to them, whomever sells now is out of luck.

Agree. It seems that many people doesn't understand the meaning of the "risk" word in the field of investing, especially in the stock market. Such class actions are meaningful only if you think there has been a fraud in some place, which is not the case, since the statement doesn't talk of it. It's a pity to see a powerful tool, such as the class action, that in many cases can give to the end customers the possibility to exercise their rights, abused in this way.

Yes, I fear that there could be IBM behind this, which worries me. Should it be only the idea of a couple of morons, it would be fated to fail soon.

You know, I don't like to make predictions. But Aljoscha Rittner, fellow NBTDer, just pointed me to this document: http://www.oracle.com/sun/sun-faq.pdf

There are explicit statements about MySQL and hardware stuff:

What does Oracle plan to do with MySQL? MySQL will be an addition to Oracle’s existing suite of database products, which already includes Oracle Database 11g, TimesTen, Berkeley DB open source database, and the open source transactional storage engine, InnoDB.

What will Oracle do with Sun’s hardware business? Oracle plans to grow the Sun hardware business after the closing, protecting Sun customers’ investments and ensuring the long-term viability of Sun products.

There's also another generic statement:

How is this acquisition expected to impact any existing project, deployment, or services engagements? It is not expected that this transaction will impact any existing project, deployment or services engagement.

Let's see. Sounds even too good to believe :-)

You know, I don't like to make predictions. But Aljoscha Rittner, fellow NBTDer, just pointed me to this document: http://www.oracle.com/sun/sun-faq.pdf

There are explicit statements about MySQL and hardware stuff:

What does Oracle plan to do with MySQL? MySQL will be an addition to Oracle’s existing suite of database products, which already includes Oracle Database 11g, TimesTen, Berkeley DB open source database, and the open source transactional storage engine, InnoDB.

What will Oracle do with Sun’s hardware business? Oracle plans to grow the Sun hardware business after the closing, protecting Sun customers’ investments and ensuring the long-term viability of Sun products.

There's also another generic statement:

How is this acquisition expected to impact any existing project, deployment, or services engagements? It is not expected that this transaction will impact any existing project, deployment or services engagement.

Let's see. Sounds even too good to believe :-)

Alessandro, GAE/J supports JPA too in addition to JDO (see http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine-java/web/will-it-play-in-app-engine).

While some of the points by Dmitriy are questionable (as discussed in the first comment), I don't think he's "dismissing" GAE/J as a toy. Clearly GAE/J serves a much smaller scope than EC2 and all the other similar things. For some it could be still interesting, if they just need a simple infrastructure. For others it could be considered as a "toy" if they can't do something because of the runtime restrictions. For me it's useless because of the lack of the imaging stuff.

BTW, somebody says that Google provides an "alternate" engine for imaging - I don't think I'll ever use it (yet another!) even though all my projects rely on a meta- imaging framework that could probably adapted to GAE/J stuff. But, for the sake of curiosity, can somebody please give me a pointer?Thanks.

Alessandro, GAE/J supports JPA too in addition to JDO (see http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine-java/web/will-it-play-in-app-engine).

While some of the points by Dmitriy are questionable (as discussed in the first comment), I don't think he's "dismissing" GAE/J as a toy. Clearly GAE/J serves a much smaller scope than EC2 and all the other similar things. For some it could be still interesting, if they just need a simple infrastructure. For others it could be considered as a "toy" if they can't do something because of the runtime restrictions. For me it's useless because of the lack of the imaging stuff.

BTW, somebody says that Google provides an "alternate" engine for imaging - I don't think I'll ever use it (yet another!) even though all my projects rely on a meta- imaging framework that could probably adapted to GAE/J stuff. But, for the sake of curiosity, can somebody please give me a pointer?Thanks.

Well, the only lessons that I think we had in these two weeks is that we are engineers and don't understand how the finance runs. Period.I wouldn't dare to say things like the open source model failed, since it works for a lot of companies. It is also not clear whether the IBM deal is closed forever or it's just a tactical move - for me, now, I'll just keep an eye on the things and let how it goes on, eventually commenting about the future of this and that only when there are facts on the table.

Only a quick comment on this:

I don't know...I was kinda looking forward to the deal. Looking at it purely from a Java developer's perspective, there is no way IBM could have done a worse job than Sun has in the last 2-3 years in terms of Java leadership.

IBM hasn't got yet a version of WebSphere fully compliant with the latest JEE specs and old versions of WebSphere still in production are one of the major causes of Java 1.4 still floating around. 1.4! How can one think IBM would do a better leadership?

Karsten, you're right about Sun's bad conditions and the need of a financial operation to save it. So, perhaps being bought by IBM is better than going bankrupt. I'm the first that was sure that Sun would have been bought very soon. Frankly, IBM is only the second worst buyer after Microsoft. Yes, big customers that are acquainted to elephantiac, locked-in products such as those in IBM portfolio might feel more comfortable, because they are used in wasting money in expensive consulting and integration. All the rest of the world probably doesn't feel better.

Karsten, you're right about Sun's bad conditions and the need of a financial operation to save it. So, perhaps being bought by IBM is better than going bankrupt. I'm the first that was sure that Sun would have been bought very soon. Frankly, IBM is only the second worst buyer after Microsoft. Yes, big customers that are acquainted to elephantiac, locked-in products such as those in IBM portfolio might feel more comfortable, because they are used in wasting money in expensive consulting and integration. All the rest of the world probably doesn't feel better.

Yes, Jacek, I've the same setup as Jaroslav and fonts are pretty neat. I presume it depends largely on the distro / Java version / whatever combination.

In any case, as it has been said, NetBeans is not going to disappear. In the worst case IBM can drop funding, but can't make it vanish since is GPL. There are people willing to maintain it in case funding is dropped. I bet it's the same with GlassFish and other products.

Yes, Jacek, I've the same setup as Jaroslav and fonts are pretty neat. I presume it depends largely on the distro / Java version / whatever combination.

In any case, as it has been said, NetBeans is not going to disappear. In the worst case IBM can drop funding, but can't make it vanish since is GPL. There are people willing to maintain it in case funding is dropped. I bet it's the same with GlassFish and other products.

Jacek, while I personally agree with you on the low relevance of scripting languages etc (but I know that a lot of people see things differenty), I don't believe corporates "want to use Java". I mean, they want to use a good tool. If they think Java is a good tool, they use it. In this case, they don't need a lot of extra stuff in the language (in fact, all my main customers use Java, are fine with it and see the ever-lasting debate about closures and such as a waste of time). Those who are not satisfied with Java will use a different thing.

Jacek, while I personally agree with you on the low relevance of scripting languages etc (but I know that a lot of people see things differenty), I don't believe corporates "want to use Java". I mean, they want to use a good tool. If they think Java is a good tool, they use it. In this case, they don't need a lot of extra stuff in the language (in fact, all my main customers use Java, are fine with it and see the ever-lasting debate about closures and such as a waste of time). Those who are not satisfied with Java will use a different thing.

Good point about the split, Umberto. There were rumors about it a few months ago, but you know, you can't guess which rumors are true in these cases.

Yacek, for what concerns NetBeans, it's not only the IDE. I mean - I obviously think it's much better than Eclipse, if the new NetBeans wasn't so successful and renewed I probably would have stayed with Eclipse - or maybe migrated to IDEA, since Eclipse proved to be very troubled during the PPC-Intel Mac OS X switch (not counting compatibility problems about plugins that occurred in the past). In any case, given what NetBeans is today, I would never switch back to Eclipse. A customer of mine, today, told me during the lunch break that there would be a "very bad mood" in his company if NetBeans went away since they are almost addicted to it.

But my fondness point about NetBeans is the _Platform_ - as I never liked the Eclipse Platform after having evaluated it a few time ago.

Good point about the split, Umberto. There were rumors about it a few months ago, but you know, you can't guess which rumors are true in these cases.

Yacek, for what concerns NetBeans, it's not only the IDE. I mean - I obviously think it's much better than Eclipse, if the new NetBeans wasn't so successful and renewed I probably would have stayed with Eclipse - or maybe migrated to IDEA, since Eclipse proved to be very troubled during the PPC-Intel Mac OS X switch (not counting compatibility problems about plugins that occurred in the past). In any case, given what NetBeans is today, I would never switch back to Eclipse. A customer of mine, today, told me during the lunch break that there would be a "very bad mood" in his company if NetBeans went away since they are almost addicted to it.

But my fondness point about NetBeans is the _Platform_ - as I never liked the Eclipse Platform after having evaluated it a few time ago.

Personally I see it as a disaster, agreeing with pessimistic responses above. And I think most of the Sun counterparts are much better than IBM's. I hope that the US anti-trust won't allow this.

OTOH, all the mentioned projects are open sourced and have momentum enough for the community to take over. Should some bad guy decide to cancel NetBeans, I'd be with the first volunteers to keep in going.

Personally I see it as a disaster, agreeing with pessimistic responses above. And I think most of the Sun counterparts are much better than IBM's. I hope that the US anti-trust won't allow this.

OTOH, all the mentioned projects are open sourced and have momentum enough for the community to take over. Should some bad guy decide to cancel NetBeans, I'd be with the first volunteers to keep in going.

Hmm... it seems I didn't explain myself properly. Looking e.g. at the FEST description I see that the typical features of existing Swing-testing frameworks are:

1. Simulation of user interaction with a GUI (e.g. mouse and keyboard input)
2. Reliable GUI component lookup (by type, by name or custom search criteria)
3. Support for all Swing components included in the JDK
4. Compact and powerful API for creation and maintenance of functional GUI tests
5. Supports Applet testing
6. Ability to embed screenshots of failed GUI tests in HTML test reports
7. Can be used with either TestNG or JUnit
8. Supports testing violations of Swing's threading rules

I agree that it's a nonsense re-writing new code for the above features - the fact that blueMarine has specific code for those is just a legacy and will disappear in the near future. Since blueMarine is a NetBeans Platform application, I'll use the specific support that the Platform provides.

My critical point is - still quoting FEST documentation - "testing long-duration tasks":

The following are the typical steps to complete such scenario:

1. User launches the application
2. A login window appears
3. User enters her username and password and clicks the "Login" button
4. User is authenticated and authorized successfully
5. The main window of the application is displayed

The "tricky" part here is step 4. Authentication/authorization can take some time (depending on network traffic, etc.) and we need to wait for the main window to appear in order to continue our test. It is possible to test this scenario with FEST:

loginDialog.textBox("username").enterText("yvonne");
loginDialog.textBox("password").enterText("welcome");
loginDialog.button("login").click();

// now the interesting part, we need to wait till the main window is shown.
FrameFixture mainFrame = findFrame("main").using(loginDialog.robot);

Paraphrasing the above example, I've got some scenarios where the "main" frame would appear by itself, as a consequence of other actions started in the past; thus, its mere appearance is not a good signal that I can proceed with the test. I must be sure that "main" appearance is strictly a consequence of the click on the "login" button. Unfortunately there are no different properties in the many appearances of "main" that I could use to discriminate them.

When I looked at FEST I found promising that "using(loginDialog.robot)" because it sounded as the "tagging" idea I have in mind; maybe that means that FEST will ignore any appearance of a "main" frame that has not been triggered by the "login" button click?

But the following explanation:

This is necessary because, in a given test, only one instance of Robot can be running, to prevent GUI tests from blocking each other on the screen. In another words, in a test class you can only use one and only one instance of Robot.

seems to tell me that it's another matter; for sure that "one and only instance" contrasts with my needs, as my test could launch multiple activities at the same time - still paraphrasing the previous example, think of this:

1. click on a "login" button
2. click again on a "login" button
3. wait for a "main" appearance as consequence of the first click on "login"
4. wait for another "main" appearance as a consequence of the second click on "login"

Of course this doesn't make much sense for a login window, but I'm just reusing the same example for clarity.

Does FEST or any other Swing testing framework support this scenario?

Hmm... it seems I didn't explain myself properly. Looking e.g. at the FEST description I see that the typical features of existing Swing-testing frameworks are:

1. Simulation of user interaction with a GUI (e.g. mouse and keyboard input)
2. Reliable GUI component lookup (by type, by name or custom search criteria)
3. Support for all Swing components included in the JDK
4. Compact and powerful API for creation and maintenance of functional GUI tests
5. Supports Applet testing
6. Ability to embed screenshots of failed GUI tests in HTML test reports
7. Can be used with either TestNG or JUnit
8. Supports testing violations of Swing's threading rules

I agree that it's a nonsense re-writing new code for the above features - the fact that blueMarine has specific code for those is just a legacy and will disappear in the near future. Since blueMarine is a NetBeans Platform application, I'll use the specific support that the Platform provides.

My critical point is - still quoting FEST documentation - "testing long-duration tasks":

The following are the typical steps to complete such scenario:

1. User launches the application
2. A login window appears
3. User enters her username and password and clicks the "Login" button
4. User is authenticated and authorized successfully
5. The main window of the application is displayed

The "tricky" part here is step 4. Authentication/authorization can take some time (depending on network traffic, etc.) and we need to wait for the main window to appear in order to continue our test. It is possible to test this scenario with FEST:

loginDialog.textBox("username").enterText("yvonne");
loginDialog.textBox("password").enterText("welcome");
loginDialog.button("login").click();

// now the interesting part, we need to wait till the main window is shown.
FrameFixture mainFrame = findFrame("main").using(loginDialog.robot);

Paraphrasing the above example, I've got some scenarios where the "main" frame would appear by itself, as a consequence of other actions started in the past; thus, its mere appearance is not a good signal that I can proceed with the test. I must be sure that "main" appearance is strictly a consequence of the click on the "login" button. Unfortunately there are no different properties in the many appearances of "main" that I could use to discriminate them.

When I looked at FEST I found promising that "using(loginDialog.robot)" because it sounded as the "tagging" idea I have in mind; maybe that means that FEST will ignore any appearance of a "main" frame that has not been triggered by the "login" button click?

But the following explanation:

This is necessary because, in a given test, only one instance of Robot can be running, to prevent GUI tests from blocking each other on the screen. In another words, in a test class you can only use one and only one instance of Robot.

seems to tell me that it's another matter; for sure that "one and only instance" contrasts with my needs, as my test could launch multiple activities at the same time - still paraphrasing the previous example, think of this:

1. click on a "login" button
2. click again on a "login" button
3. wait for a "main" appearance as consequence of the first click on "login"
4. wait for another "main" appearance as a consequence of the second click on "login"

Of course this doesn't make much sense for a login window, but I'm just reusing the same example for clarity.

Does FEST or any other Swing testing framework support this scenario?

Hi Tim, I'll have a look at the book. In any case, I fully agree with you on the two ingredients: I don't have problems in those areas (finding components and asserting on Swing components); it's that in real-world applications the UI is likely to be updated frequently and the tricky part is to find out which update matches the testing stimulus you submitted. As far as I've read so far, books and tutorials cover simpler cases.

* Update: I've bought the PDF version of your book and quickly browsing it I found at page 187 "The Unit Test for waitForNamedThreadToFinish()". While I agree on the point of giving names to threads, which I usually do at least for a more understandable log, this can't be a solution for every case. Sometimes the thread is not controlled by you, instead is created by a 3rd party library; but, above all, in the case I've described in my post you have this sequence "EDT -> Thread -> EDT" (which is typical), so the completion of the computing sequence happens in the EDT and you can't just wait for a named thread. With tags the thing seems to work.

Hi Tim, I'll have a look at the book. In any case, I fully agree with you on the two ingredients: I don't have problems in those areas (finding components and asserting on Swing components); it's that in real-world applications the UI is likely to be updated frequently and the tricky part is to find out which update matches the testing stimulus you submitted. As far as I've read so far, books and tutorials cover simpler cases.

* Update: I've bought the PDF version of your book and quickly browsing it I found at page 187 "The Unit Test for waitForNamedThreadToFinish()". While I agree on the point of giving names to threads, which I usually do at least for a more understandable log, this can't be a solution for every case. Sometimes the thread is not controlled by you, instead is created by a 3rd party library; but, above all, in the case I've described in my post you have this sequence "EDT -> Thread -> EDT" (which is typical), so the completion of the computing sequence happens in the EDT and you can't just wait for a named thread. With tags the thing seems to work.

A better UML diagram for the idiom could be this:

A better UML diagram for the idiom could be this:

I think that freshmeat.net is good, even though it has some limitations by principle (it doesn't track software that is only for Windows, if I'm not wrong - BTW, this isn't really a problem for me :-)

But this doesn't solve the problem about communication :-( Indeed, for 80% of the FLOSS things that I use I often need to post questions, thus I need to subscribe to mailing list and / or RSS feeds. The volume of information that I daily receive about these things is constantly increasing and I fear I'm getting close to the brain overflow :-( For some very common projects (and not so hard questions), the JUG mailing lists are a good "one-list-catches-many-topics" thing, but it only works up to a certain point.

Hi Harris.

At the moment, the great advantage is for what concerns the tier of services and models, that is the business tier. It is something that can be best clarified by examples, and I'll post some in future here on DZone (also with other two "series" of posts about NetBeans Platform Idioms etc...); for the moment, take this small one: I have a Metadata infrastructure that allow to extract metadata from media (e.g. photos), eventually store them in a database, where they can be searched for. Every kind of metadata (EXIF, IPTC, whatever) is implemented by separate modules, as well as persistence in the database is enabled by just adding specific modules, without requiring any configuration. This means that I can easily satisfy different needs (blueMarine itself, blueOcean base, blueOcean as used by my customer, and hopefully other future customers) by just assembling different set of modules in specific custom platforms. This has been achieved mostly by means of the Lookup API (and in future I could use more the layer.xml facility). Most of this stuff could be used also by taking simple .jars as libraries out of the NetBeans Platform; but as the number of configurations increases, it is really important to have the capability of checking compatibilities and dependencies among modules. You could be always safe with a good testing, but in any case I appreciate when a static tool finds / prevents problems as early as possible. Furthermore, having the very same process for two different projects is a big time saver for me.

There are two different uses of the Platform that I'll evaluate soon. First is the "Event Bus" (based on "Central Lookup" by Wade Chandler) that I've talked about a few months ago; in blueMarine it introduces another great deal of decoupling that in the customer's project based on blueOcean I don't have yet. While the Event Bus as is works fine with a single user (it is a singleton), it must be adapted in the case of concurrency (it should be enough to write a variant based on ThreadLocal). Second is about the use of Nodes for a number of things, including dynamic generation of menus based on the functions that you have dynamically included in the current configuration. This is more sensible because of the cited potential problem with the AWT Thread, which would be a serious bottleneck on the server side.

Hi Harris.

At the moment, the great advantage is for what concerns the tier of services and models, that is the business tier. It is something that can be best clarified by examples, and I'll post some in future here on DZone (also with other two "series" of posts about NetBeans Platform Idioms etc...); for the moment, take this small one: I have a Metadata infrastructure that allow to extract metadata from media (e.g. photos), eventually store them in a database, where they can be searched for. Every kind of metadata (EXIF, IPTC, whatever) is implemented by separate modules, as well as persistence in the database is enabled by just adding specific modules, without requiring any configuration. This means that I can easily satisfy different needs (blueMarine itself, blueOcean base, blueOcean as used by my customer, and hopefully other future customers) by just assembling different set of modules in specific custom platforms. This has been achieved mostly by means of the Lookup API (and in future I could use more the layer.xml facility). Most of this stuff could be used also by taking simple .jars as libraries out of the NetBeans Platform; but as the number of configurations increases, it is really important to have the capability of checking compatibilities and dependencies among modules. You could be always safe with a good testing, but in any case I appreciate when a static tool finds / prevents problems as early as possible. Furthermore, having the very same process for two different projects is a big time saver for me.

There are two different uses of the Platform that I'll evaluate soon. First is the "Event Bus" (based on "Central Lookup" by Wade Chandler) that I've talked about a few months ago; in blueMarine it introduces another great deal of decoupling that in the customer's project based on blueOcean I don't have yet. While the Event Bus as is works fine with a single user (it is a singleton), it must be adapted in the case of concurrency (it should be enough to write a variant based on ThreadLocal). Second is about the use of Nodes for a number of things, including dynamic generation of menus based on the functions that you have dynamically included in the current configuration. This is more sensible because of the cited potential problem with the AWT Thread, which would be a serious bottleneck on the server side.

Hmm.... maybe I'm answering too in a hurry and I didn't understand well... but AFAIK when you have compiled a class C1 that is annotated with A, you can put C1 in the compile (and run) classpath for C2 without the need of putting A in C2 classpath.You only get warnings and A is ignored (as it's proper to do: annotations have a meaning only in a certain context, and in C2 context A is meaningless).

I' ve just double checked, compiling a sample class X against a JAR that contains javax.persistence annotations (but not putting jpa.jar in the compiler classpath):

istral:/tmp> javac -classpath it-tidalwave-catalog.jar X.java
it/tidalwave/catalog/persistence/CategoryPB.class(it/tidalwave/catalog/persistence:CategoryPB.class): warning: Cannot find annotation method 'name()' in type 'javax.persistence.Table': class file for javax.persistence.Table not found
it/tidalwave/catalog/persistence/CategoryPB.class(it/tidalwave/catalog/persistence:CategoryPB.class): warning: Cannot find annotation method 'length()' in type 'javax.persistence.Column': class file for javax.persistence.Column not found
it/tidalwave/catalog/persistence/CategoryPB.class(it/tidalwave/catalog/persistence:CategoryPB.class): warning: Cannot find annotation method 'name()' in type 'javax.persistence.Column'

etc... Just warnings, the compilation is successful.

Hmm.... maybe I'm answering too in a hurry and I didn't understand well... but AFAIK when you have compiled a class C1 that is annotated with A, you can put C1 in the compile (and run) classpath for C2 without the need of putting A in C2 classpath.You only get warnings and A is ignored (as it's proper to do: annotations have a meaning only in a certain context, and in C2 context A is meaningless).

I' ve just double checked, compiling a sample class X against a JAR that contains javax.persistence annotations (but not putting jpa.jar in the compiler classpath):

istral:/tmp> javac -classpath it-tidalwave-catalog.jar X.java
it/tidalwave/catalog/persistence/CategoryPB.class(it/tidalwave/catalog/persistence:CategoryPB.class): warning: Cannot find annotation method 'name()' in type 'javax.persistence.Table': class file for javax.persistence.Table not found
it/tidalwave/catalog/persistence/CategoryPB.class(it/tidalwave/catalog/persistence:CategoryPB.class): warning: Cannot find annotation method 'length()' in type 'javax.persistence.Column': class file for javax.persistence.Column not found
it/tidalwave/catalog/persistence/CategoryPB.class(it/tidalwave/catalog/persistence:CategoryPB.class): warning: Cannot find annotation method 'name()' in type 'javax.persistence.Column'

etc... Just warnings, the compilation is successful.

Hmm, I still don't understand the question :-)So let's go with examples from my use cases.

Case number 1: the extension point is a service: client code needs a service S, thus it must know the interface that describes it and the interface itself is the name to pass to lookup. Since I must invoke methods in S, I must have prior knowledge of S.

Case number 2: the extension point is a listener, so the original code is not aware of it; the idea is that you can extend an existing functionality by putting into the system a new plugin, so the original code is not aware of the presence of the listener. But - the listener would be still described by an interface. The original code lookups for that interface and gets a list of implementations (possible multiple listeners) and calls them. In this scenario, the original code doesn't know whether there are zero extension points, or there are multiple ones. Still, by looking up a class we fall back to the previous case.

BTW, with the Module API in NetBeans you can actualy inspect all the modules you have in the system. At the moment I can't figure out a use case for that (apart from the plugin management facility). Can you make some example of what you're thinking of?

Christopher: clearly when one has choosen (or has been forced to use) a platform, he sticks with it. But sometimes he can choose; for instance, I evaluated the Eclipse module system in 2005 (at the time Eclipse was my IDE) since my application was plain Java. While the fact that Eclipse is not Swing played a major role in my rejecting it, I also found the module system thing pretty overcomplicated. After a few months I tried NetBeans, and sure the initial facilitator was Swing compability that made it easier to port my old code; but I really found the module system intuitive and easy to understand and use.

Hmm, I still don't understand the question :-)So let's go with examples from my use cases.

Case number 1: the extension point is a service: client code needs a service S, thus it must know the interface that describes it and the interface itself is the name to pass to lookup. Since I must invoke methods in S, I must have prior knowledge of S.

Case number 2: the extension point is a listener, so the original code is not aware of it; the idea is that you can extend an existing functionality by putting into the system a new plugin, so the original code is not aware of the presence of the listener. But - the listener would be still described by an interface. The original code lookups for that interface and gets a list of implementations (possible multiple listeners) and calls them. In this scenario, the original code doesn't know whether there are zero extension points, or there are multiple ones. Still, by looking up a class we fall back to the previous case.

BTW, with the Module API in NetBeans you can actualy inspect all the modules you have in the system. At the moment I can't figure out a use case for that (apart from the plugin management facility). Can you make some example of what you're thinking of?

Christopher: clearly when one has choosen (or has been forced to use) a platform, he sticks with it. But sometimes he can choose; for instance, I evaluated the Eclipse module system in 2005 (at the time Eclipse was my IDE) since my application was plain Java. While the fact that Eclipse is not Swing played a major role in my rejecting it, I also found the module system thing pretty overcomplicated. After a few months I tried NetBeans, and sure the initial facilitator was Swing compability that made it easier to port my old code; but I really found the module system intuitive and easy to understand and use.

"The extension point does not define itself: there is no information about which module-public interface is used as an extension point."

Perhaps I've not fully understood the point... Why should I know that by defaut? It is a good design principle to separate interfaces from implementations, so the only thing I need to know is that there is an extension point, not necessarily where it comes from.

"The lookup name to be used is also undefined."

The lookup name is the class itself: what better name could I imagine? If I need an extension point (which I prefer to call service) is because I need to do something with it, that is I know that I need its interface / abstact class. Why should I also search for another kind of name?

'The extension and other content are mixed in the layer.xml file: hard to determine what extension points the module contribute to.'

This is just a matter of tooling: in the IDE, if you open the icons "XML Layer" and "XML Layer in context" you can see the extension points contributed by the current module marked in bold. Indeed, there's a lot of improvements that can be done in tooling (such as generating automatically dependency graphs etc...), but - again - this is a matter of tooling.

The fact that layer.xml can contain other things is very powerful indeed, and you have just to define the proper structure of virtual directories in the file itself.

"The extension point does not define itself: there is no information about which module-public interface is used as an extension point."

Perhaps I've not fully understood the point... Why should I know that by defaut? It is a good design principle to separate interfaces from implementations, so the only thing I need to know is that there is an extension point, not necessarily where it comes from.

"The lookup name to be used is also undefined."

The lookup name is the class itself: what better name could I imagine? If I need an extension point (which I prefer to call service) is because I need to do something with it, that is I know that I need its interface / abstact class. Why should I also search for another kind of name?

'The extension and other content are mixed in the layer.xml file: hard to determine what extension points the module contribute to.'

This is just a matter of tooling: in the IDE, if you open the icons "XML Layer" and "XML Layer in context" you can see the extension points contributed by the current module marked in bold. Indeed, there's a lot of improvements that can be done in tooling (such as generating automatically dependency graphs etc...), but - again - this is a matter of tooling.

The fact that layer.xml can contain other things is very powerful indeed, and you have just to define the proper structure of virtual directories in the file itself.

Thank you Diomidis, it's really a neat tool.

Geertjan, my approach is of course very similar to yours (99%), there are only a few differences in some details of the -javadoc-with-packages script that is for RCP projects and not J2SE ones. The fact that the target name starts with a dash makes it understand that it isn't something that you call directly, but it's called by the harness when you run ant-javadoc in a module project.

For generating all the javadocs in a suite, I put this in the build.xml of the suite project:

<target name="javadoc" depends="-init">
<subant target="javadoc" buildpath="${modules.sorted}" inheritrefs="true" inheritall="false">
<property name="netbeans.javadoc.dir" value="${basedir}/build/javadoc"/>
</subant>
</target>

And that's over :-) Actually since Meera and you published that stuff, all blueMarine javadocs are updated with their UML diagrams on the website, thanks to Hudson.

Thank you Diomidis, it's really a neat tool.

Geertjan, my approach is of course very similar to yours (99%), there are only a few differences in some details of the -javadoc-with-packages script that is for RCP projects and not J2SE ones. The fact that the target name starts with a dash makes it understand that it isn't something that you call directly, but it's called by the harness when you run ant-javadoc in a module project.

For generating all the javadocs in a suite, I put this in the build.xml of the suite project:

<target name="javadoc" depends="-init">
<subant target="javadoc" buildpath="${modules.sorted}" inheritrefs="true" inheritall="false">
<property name="netbeans.javadoc.dir" value="${basedir}/build/javadoc"/>
</subant>
</target>

And that's over :-) Actually since Meera and you published that stuff, all blueMarine javadocs are updated with their UML diagrams on the website, thanks to Hudson.

Excellent suggestion Alex, I like the idea of annotations to declare concrete properties of classes, and definitely FindBugs is a plus.

I'm just wondering why the granularity of the annotations is at class level. For instance, I could think of a class which is not thread-safe, but some of its methods are (even though I can't remember any part of my code being like this). Would that be considered a bad practice?

Well, it's anthropomorphism as well, as the class becomes "human".

Back to the question, I'd answer "yes". My comments in the code are always in third person or imperative, but e.g. when I have troubles and talk with other persons or mailing lists about my problems, I say "I open a connection and..." much more often than "My code opens...". When I review and correct other people's code, I say "You are doing this and that", rather than "Your code is doing...".

I don't know, though, if this is "transference" or just a way to make the communication brief ("I" is shorter than "My code").

After all, when I've been taught programming, teachers and books explained algorithms and variables as human procedures and drawers where you get and put things; and even CRC cards and Robustness Analysis in the end rely a lot about anthropomorphised (?) classes, right?

Well, it's anthropomorphism as well, as the class becomes "human".

Back to the question, I'd answer "yes". My comments in the code are always in third person or imperative, but e.g. when I have troubles and talk with other persons or mailing lists about my problems, I say "I open a connection and..." much more often than "My code opens...". When I review and correct other people's code, I say "You are doing this and that", rather than "Your code is doing...".

I don't know, though, if this is "transference" or just a way to make the communication brief ("I" is shorter than "My code").

After all, when I've been taught programming, teachers and books explained algorithms and variables as human procedures and drawers where you get and put things; and even CRC cards and Robustness Analysis in the end rely a lot about anthropomorphised (?) classes, right?

I don't understand the objection that comments could not be updated as the code evolve. It's a programmer responsibility to update them, as well as for tests. Unless you do TDD (in which case tests are updated by definition), I don't think that test code updates automatically as code evolves. Which BTW is another of the very good points about TDD, but not everybody does TDD.

*** edited to add

What I mean is that in any case the programmer has to keep other artifacts updated to the code; if he doesn't he's bad, and not only for the comments.

I don't understand the objection that comments could not be updated as the code evolve. It's a programmer responsibility to update them, as well as for tests. Unless you do TDD (in which case tests are updated by definition), I don't think that test code updates automatically as code evolves. Which BTW is another of the very good points about TDD, but not everybody does TDD.

*** edited to add

What I mean is that in any case the programmer has to keep other artifacts updated to the code; if he doesn't he's bad, and not only for the comments.

Yes, the browser thing is really severe, but in this case I've still some hope in Apple that they will fix it in a few months, when the final JavaFX SDK is available and people will start deploying stuff.

PS The browser problem is only with Safari or also with FireFox?

Yes, the browser thing is really severe, but in this case I've still some hope in Apple that they will fix it in a few months, when the final JavaFX SDK is available and people will start deploying stuff.

PS The browser problem is only with Safari or also with FireFox?

I second you opinion, and I'm adding some points. One of the points that bloggers or top programmers / designers / methodologists miss is their assumption that all the other people in the world have got their skills (this applies not only to commenting code, but to the whole process). I mean, my experience is that I write / advice about writing code for others, and these "others" range from teams which are very experienced in Java to others will scarse experience; I'm also in maintainance mode for some projects whose owner company has _no_ experience in Java and won't ever have, since its focus is elsewhere. It is not unlikely that sooner or later rookies will have to put their hands on the code, not necessarily with a senior supervising (we can discuss about how but is this practice, and it's bad indeed, but this is how the world goes on) and I feel as I have to make sure that the code is comprehensible also by this kind of people.

Add to that that I often use my open source projects as pedagogic material (teaching people with a project from the real world is much more interesting that simple and small lab projects, where it's too easy to have everything fit and working) and you understand the need for some extra comments.

I second you opinion, and I'm adding some points. One of the points that bloggers or top programmers / designers / methodologists miss is their assumption that all the other people in the world have got their skills (this applies not only to commenting code, but to the whole process). I mean, my experience is that I write / advice about writing code for others, and these "others" range from teams which are very experienced in Java to others will scarse experience; I'm also in maintainance mode for some projects whose owner company has _no_ experience in Java and won't ever have, since its focus is elsewhere. It is not unlikely that sooner or later rookies will have to put their hands on the code, not necessarily with a senior supervising (we can discuss about how but is this practice, and it's bad indeed, but this is how the world goes on) and I feel as I have to make sure that the code is comprehensible also by this kind of people.

Add to that that I often use my open source projects as pedagogic material (teaching people with a project from the real world is much more interesting that simple and small lab projects, where it's too easy to have everything fit and working) and you understand the need for some extra comments.

For all the Aqua stuff: I don't know how many are aware of it, but the porting of Aqua to SoyLatte is not so far as one could think. Quaqua, Werner Randelshofer's, is a very accurate implementation of Aqua for Java, in 100% Java, with just a bit of missing pieces - it is even more accurate than Apple's Java in many respects. I've tried it with SoyLatte a few time ago:

http://weblogs.java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici/archive/2008/05/a_little_deskto.html

and it looked quite good at the time. The really missing point, which is outside of Quaqua scope and thus to be addressed with native code in SoyLatte, is to drop X11 bindings and get the thing to live inside a Cocoa window (and use Cocoa fonts).
But I think you just need that top-level container, while all the inner controls are ok with Quaqua.

@Casper Bang, your "peeing in the pants" analogy is really cool and I'll write it down in my memorable quotes notepad ;-) Furthermore I had missed that Java 6 requirement for NB 6.5 (and - oh my - this is very shameful for me) - which sadly means that I'll have to retire my MBP (only 32 bit) six months earlier than I thought. Ouch.

Good news from SoyLatte:

http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/2008/08/01#OpenJDK_BSD_Project.20080801

@jakob: as time passes, the problem will probably be solved, but you'll also loose some business opportunity. And of course the problem will be again here when Java 7 is out (even though probably Java 7 won't be so compelling as Java 6 with all the new desktop stuff, but who knows?).

@naiden: if you read what others write, probably you'd get answers :-) I could use Windows in a virtual box and develop with JavaFX: but what about deploying? What if I target Mac OS X users and most of them still have 32-bit systems? Do you think that I can ask them for switching to Windows?

Deane, I'm in your same boat and I sympathize. Thanks also for making it clear the problem about the Intel 64 distribution in customers' machines - I say this because too often somebody replies to this topic "just buy a recent Mac" as if it was the only problem.

My point is that it's not realistic to ask to Sun now for supporting Java 5. It's not realistic because of the huge amount of things that they did in order to support JavaFX and all that stuff is in Java 6. Of course, backporting is always possible in principle, but it requires for a lot of resources. As far as we can see, all the Sun guys are already pushing hard for JavaFX on Java 6, they have still a lot of stuff to do and the thing must work fine since v1.0 because they are chasing the competitors. They won't have another chance. And we also know that Sun doesn't have at the moment the plentiness of financial resources that others such as Google can use for doing a lot of things at the same time. So they are basically forced to focus on the main thing.

I see much more realistic the SoyLatte way, of course this will require some time. So far, I was able to run on SoyLatte almost everything I tried - the only problem were some of the demos of JavaFX, but they were from an older release. In the next days I'll try with the new release. Of course, SoyLatte has got the problem of the missing Cocoa bindings, and this is one of the points where the community should focus. I myself wold happily work on it, but I don't have any experience with neither ObjectiveC or Cocoa, so I can't help developing it. But I've already offered myself for testing. I only hope that some other guy with the proper developing experience will help.

Hi Valentin, thanks for trying the code.

How did you packed the PersistenceProvider?

Hi Valentin, thanks for trying the code.

How did you packed the PersistenceProvider?

Alexander's point is good, if you have a lot of nodes to be updated you have high costs. What is unclear to me, in this scenario, is how people think to go on indefinitely with an old version. I mean, we have the end of life thing and no more security updates after next Fall. Is this acceptable? This could be ok if e.g. the application we're talking of is getting near to its own end of life, say it will be replaced in 2009 by a completely new system. In this case, upgrading is probably an unneeded cost. But if it will live for other 5 years, is it acceptable to stay without security patches?

The whole thing of re-testing and re-tuning a JVM upgrade has clearly a cost, but it should be part of the planned maintenance costs.

BTW, I'm involved in only one project, dating back to a few years ago, that still runs Java 1.4 code. I've made an assessment and there are some things to do in order to upgrade it to Java 6 - the most serious part is the lack of a good test plan for QA from the customer. In other words, they know they have a stable product now, but they fear to introduce instability by upgrading. If they had a good test plan, they wouldn't we worried so much; and probably up to now they just didn't want to pay the costs of a specific test session after the upgrade. In any case, the end-of-life thing is probably changing their mind.

Alexander's point is good, if you have a lot of nodes to be updated you have high costs. What is unclear to me, in this scenario, is how people think to go on indefinitely with an old version. I mean, we have the end of life thing and no more security updates after next Fall. Is this acceptable? This could be ok if e.g. the application we're talking of is getting near to its own end of life, say it will be replaced in 2009 by a completely new system. In this case, upgrading is probably an unneeded cost. But if it will live for other 5 years, is it acceptable to stay without security patches?

The whole thing of re-testing and re-tuning a JVM upgrade has clearly a cost, but it should be part of the planned maintenance costs.

BTW, I'm involved in only one project, dating back to a few years ago, that still runs Java 1.4 code. I've made an assessment and there are some things to do in order to upgrade it to Java 6 - the most serious part is the lack of a good test plan for QA from the customer. In other words, they know they have a stable product now, but they fear to introduce instability by upgrading. If they had a good test plan, they wouldn't we worried so much; and probably up to now they just didn't want to pay the costs of a specific test session after the upgrade. In any case, the end-of-life thing is probably changing their mind.

"I find it pretty amazing that 40% (including those running even older) still had not moved to Java 5 yet. "

Indeed I find it pretty amazing that they are so few; and I am as amazed as you in learning that Java 6 has got nearly the 40% share. Every time the discussion moves on Java 6 (for instance, every time Apple drives mad people about not fully supporting it) there's a crowd of people standing up and saying "Who cares? Most people still uses 1.4, nobody uses 1.6". Well, your poll demonstrates that both assertions are false.

"I find it pretty amazing that 40% (including those running even older) still had not moved to Java 5 yet. "

Indeed I find it pretty amazing that they are so few; and I am as amazed as you in learning that Java 6 has got nearly the 40% share. Every time the discussion moves on Java 6 (for instance, every time Apple drives mad people about not fully supporting it) there's a crowd of people standing up and saying "Who cares? Most people still uses 1.4, nobody uses 1.6". Well, your poll demonstrates that both assertions are false.

Bruce, of course if you have a specific deployment target, you can go with a specific model. Apart from the cool factor, the iPhone doesn't look to me the best option either, since its SDK is completely proprietary and you would get into a strong vendor lock-in.

Said that, "J2ME is a piece of junk" is not enough to convince us that there are things the iPhone can do and J2ME doesn't. BTW, I can say one thing that J2ME can do (on many platforms) and iPhone can't: multitasking. Jobs says it's for the battery life again (I think he should get more fantasy when he has to hide behind a corner), but that's clearly not true, because the competitors can. It's clearly a point about forcing people to develop with a specific model, which relies on network pushes and make you waste money with your telco. Also the impossibility of distributing my own application with my favourite channels, as I'm forced to go through Apple iStore, is bad (please no excuses about securiry: there are billions phones with Java support out there and no major security issues when you just go with digital signing).

Sorry, too many constraints. In the XXI century I'm not saying that people have to necessarily go with open source, but at least with reasonably open platforms. Most of the other mobile platforms supported by J2ME are (BTW, Symbian has just got open sourced too).

Bruce, of course if you have a specific deployment target, you can go with a specific model. Apart from the cool factor, the iPhone doesn't look to me the best option either, since its SDK is completely proprietary and you would get into a strong vendor lock-in.

Said that, "J2ME is a piece of junk" is not enough to convince us that there are things the iPhone can do and J2ME doesn't. BTW, I can say one thing that J2ME can do (on many platforms) and iPhone can't: multitasking. Jobs says it's for the battery life again (I think he should get more fantasy when he has to hide behind a corner), but that's clearly not true, because the competitors can. It's clearly a point about forcing people to develop with a specific model, which relies on network pushes and make you waste money with your telco. Also the impossibility of distributing my own application with my favourite channels, as I'm forced to go through Apple iStore, is bad (please no excuses about securiry: there are billions phones with Java support out there and no major security issues when you just go with digital signing).

Sorry, too many constraints. In the XXI century I'm not saying that people have to necessarily go with open source, but at least with reasonably open platforms. Most of the other mobile platforms supported by J2ME are (BTW, Symbian has just got open sourced too).

Spring does give you a feeling of being more in control at the expense of having to set everything up yourself.

I agree on that too. But, for instance, I have seen people to whom I've presented both technologies and were much more attracted by EJBs (in spite of my light/medium Spring bias) where "things just work" and you don't have to set up a handful of beans for the TX manager etc... Which is not an argument to me, I mean the thing is apparently more complex, but once you learn it you make it work forever, but everybody has his own perspective on this.

Spring does give you a feeling of being more in control at the expense of having to set everything up yourself.

I agree on that too. But, for instance, I have seen people to whom I've presented both technologies and were much more attracted by EJBs (in spite of my light/medium Spring bias) where "things just work" and you don't have to set up a handful of beans for the TX manager etc... Which is not an argument to me, I mean the thing is apparently more complex, but once you learn it you make it work forever, but everybody has his own perspective on this.

As time passes, I really can't find the right words to participate in these discussions: the point is that EJB and Spring are getting closer and closer (both are POJOs, both need a container, both can be used with configuration files or annotations), so today choosing one over the other seems to be mostly a matter of personal taste. This of course means that Adam is right and EJB 3 are good. Until a few time ago, I supposed there was a major difference: with EJB you can do things only in one way, and you get all the services or none in a monolithic fashion, while with Spring you can only ask for a single service, e.g. only transaction management, and you can control things at fine grain (e.g. choose your transactional manager, etc...). One of the things I've most appreciated about Spring is the capability of decorating existing beans to fit your needs. But, AFAIU, Glassfish 3 with its modular structure is going to offer more or less the same thing - am I right?

At the moment I'm going to introduce one of the two technologies in my Rich Client Platform application. My original idea was, and still is, about Spring; but I must confess that Adam is making me think more and more about EJBs... :-)

As time passes, I really can't find the right words to participate in these discussions: the point is that EJB and Spring are getting closer and closer (both are POJOs, both need a container, both can be used with configuration files or annotations), so today choosing one over the other seems to be mostly a matter of personal taste. This of course means that Adam is right and EJB 3 are good. Until a few time ago, I supposed there was a major difference: with EJB you can do things only in one way, and you get all the services or none in a monolithic fashion, while with Spring you can only ask for a single service, e.g. only transaction management, and you can control things at fine grain (e.g. choose your transactional manager, etc...). One of the things I've most appreciated about Spring is the capability of decorating existing beans to fit your needs. But, AFAIU, Glassfish 3 with its modular structure is going to offer more or less the same thing - am I right?

At the moment I'm going to introduce one of the two technologies in my Rich Client Platform application. My original idea was, and still is, about Spring; but I must confess that Adam is making me think more and more about EJBs... :-)

 <!-- Workaround javac bug 6280975 - drop fix when definitely moving to Java 6 -->
 <target name="-pre-compile">
 <property name="javac.includes" value="it/tidalwave/bluemarine/persistence/TxTask.java"/>
 <echo message="Compiling ${javac.includes} separately because of http://bugs.sun.com/view_bug.do?bug_id=6280975"/>
 <ant target="compile-single" />
 </target>
 <target name="compile" depends="-pre-compile,projectized-common.compile"/>

 <!-- Workaround javac bug 6280975 - drop fix when definitely moving to Java 6 -->
 <target name="-pre-compile">
 <property name="javac.includes" value="it/tidalwave/bluemarine/persistence/TxTask.java"/>
 <echo message="Compiling ${javac.includes} separately because of http://bugs.sun.com/view_bug.do?bug_id=6280975"/>
 <ant target="compile-single" />
 </target>
 <target name="compile" depends="-pre-compile,projectized-common.compile"/>